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More From My Interview With Dr. Ayelet Fishbach On the Science of Motivation and the Cobra Effect
During our interview, I asked Dr. Ayelet Fishbach about the science of motivation and how it relates to intrinsic motivation. I asked her to explain through the story of how Vietnam handled its rat infestation problem.

Dr. Fishbach explains, “I love that story. This is the story of the Cobra Effect. It started in Hanoi, when French colonists were trying to get rid of the rats that were running around the streets. And they had a real problem with that too many rats, probably due to the newest sewage system that they installed. And so they came up with a clever bounty system, they would pay one cent per rate, which killed specifically they were paying one cent per rate tail of what was supposed to be a dead rat.
They thought that the program was successful because initially, they were getting a ton of dead rat tails. What they realized very soon is there are actually more, not fewer rats running the streets. And what they then realized is that they were paying people for rats, they were paying for tails. How do you get the tail of a rat? Well, you need to have a rat. And so people of Vietnam were breeding rats. They were creating more rats so they can get the money. And it’s such a nice example of how incentives can backfire. How incentives can get exactly the opposite effect of what you are hoping to get.
I mentioned it’s called the Cobra Effect because some years later, they tried to get rid of cobras in India by introducing a similar bounty program. And guess what, if you’re getting paid to bring in a dead Cobra, you should have a live Cobra first. So you’re incentivizing people to have to bread their cobras. But let me also add that this does not mean that incentives don’t work incentives work very well incentives can get people to read rats, which is not something that anybody would ever do unless they’re incentivized to do.
This means that you should be very careful with presenting incentives because you don’t always know what kind of behavior you’re incentivizing.”
Thanks, Ayelet Fishbach!
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Resources From The Show With Dr. Ayelet Fishbach
Please note that some of the links on this page (books, movies, music, etc.) lead to affiliate programs for which The Passion Struck podcast receives compensation. It’s just one of the ways we keep the lights on around here. Thank you so much for being so supportive!
* Website: https://www.chicagobooth.edu/faculty/directory/f/ayelet-fishbach
* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ayelet-fishbach-b32a8b4/
* Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ayeletfishbach/
* Twitter: https://twitter.com/ayeletfishbach
Show Links
* My solo episode on how to heal from the consequences of abuse: https://passionstruck.com/heal-from-the-shattering-consequences-of-abuse/
* My interview with Dr. Katy Milkman on the behavior science behind how we change: https://passionstruck.com/katy-milkman-behavior-change-for-good/
* My interview with Dr. Michael Slepian on understanding the science behind secrets: https://passionstruck.com/michael-slepian-the-secret-life-of-secrets/
* My interview with Dr. Valiere Young on how to overcome imposter syndrome: https://passionstruck.com/dr-valerie-young-on-combating-imposter-syndrome/
* My interview with Dr. Kara Fitzgerald on how to reduce your bio age and increase your lifespan: https://passionstruck.com/dr-kara-fitzgerald-become-younger-you/
* My solo episode on why micro choices matter: https://passionstruck.com/why-your-micro-choices-determine-your-life/
* My solo episode on why you must feel to heal: https://passionstruck.com/why-you-must-feel-to-find-emotional-healing/
About Today’s Guest Ayelet Fishbach

Ayelet Fishbach, Ph.D., is the Jeffrey Breakenridge Keller Professor of Behavioral Science and Marketing at the University of Chicago, Booth School of Business, and the author of GET IT DONE: Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation. She is the past president of the Society for the Science of Motivation and the International Social Cognition Network. She is an expert on motivation and decision-making.
Dr. Fishbach’s groundbreaking research on human motivation has won the Society of Experimental Social Psychology’s Best Dissertation Award and Career Trajectory Award, and the Fulbright Educational Foundation Award.
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John R. Miles is a serial entrepreneur and the CEO and founder of Passion Struck. This full-service media company helps people live intentionally by creating best-in-class educational and entertainment content. John is also a prolific public speaker, venture capitalist, and author named to the ComputerWorld Top 100 IT Leaders.
John is the host of the PassionStruckPodcast. The show focused on exploring the mindset and philosophy of the world’s most inspiring people to learn their lessons to living intentionally. Passion Struck aspires to speak to the humanity of people in a way that makes them want to live better, be better and impact.
Stay tuned for JJohn’slatest project, his upcoming book, which will be published in summer 2022.
Learn more about me: https://johnrmiles.com