John Miles: Coming up next on passion struck,
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: I will say the most surprising thing I
found in the research was that when you have a child in
distress, the number one intervention, according to
decades of resilience research is to make sure the primary
caregivers who are most often the parents, that their well
being their mental health, their support system is intact because
a child's resilience rests fundamentally on a parent's
resilience, and a parent's resilience rests fundamentally
on the depth and nurturing of their relationships.
John Miles: Welcome to passion struck. Hi, I'm your host, John
R. Miles and on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips and
guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their
wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our
mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so
that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're
new to the show. I offer advice and answer listener questions on
Fridays. We have long form interviews the rest of the week
with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs,
creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders,
visionaries and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become
passion struck. Hello everyone and welcome back to Episode 335.
A passion struck consistently ranked by Apple is one of the
top 10 most popular health podcasts. Thank you to all of
you have come back weekly to listen and learn how to live
better be better and impact the world ash unstruck is now on
syndicated radio on the brushwood media network. Catch
us monday and friday from five to 6pm. Eastern Time, links will
be in the show notes. If you're new to the show. Thank you so
much for being here. Or you simply want to introduce this to
a friend or a family member. We now have episodes starter packs,
which are collections of our fans favorite episodes that we
organize into convenient topics that give any new listener a
great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the
show either check it out on Spotify, where you can get a
passion start.com/starter packs to get started in case you
missed it. Last week I interviewed Rebecca Rosen who is
a psychic medium and author of the new book what is heaven
Rebecca serves as a mediator between two realms the physical
world which entails everyday problems and the spiritual world
where she has gained insight revealing that every individual
is born with a unique mission and it's our responsibility to
fulfill it in this earth school. I also interviewed Jason Harris,
who's the co founder and CEO of mechanism a leading Creative
Advertising Agency Jason has become a beacon of soulful
persuasion showing us that anyone can become a true artist
in their own right we discussed his Wall Street Journal best
selling book, the soulful art of persuasion, please check them
all out. And I also wanted to say thank you so much for your
ratings and reviews. We have now surpassed 10,000 reviews in the
US alone and I am so thankful for all your support. If you
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Today we delve into a pressing issue that affects students
everywhere the toxic achievement culture our special guest
Jennifer Henry Wallace, an award winning journalist and social
commentator joins us to discuss her insightful book Never enough
when achievement culture becomes toxic, and what we can do about
it in a world where success is prioritized. Above all else,
students are facing unprecedented pressure to excel.
Unfortunately, the strive for perfection has led to an
alarming rates of anxiety, depression and self harm in some
of America's highest achieving schools, parents, educators and
community leaders find themselves grappling with a
common dilemma. How can we guide our children towards excellence
without crashing their spirits. Through her research and
interviews with leading experts Jennifer sheds light in our
discussion on the deep rooted causes of toxic achievement
culture. She reveals how this pressure to perform is not
solely a matter of parental choice, but is ingrained in our
larger society. Children are increasingly internalizing the
message that their worth is tied solely to their accomplishments
perpetuated by the media and our broader culture drawn from
interviews with researchers, educators, psychologists and a
comprehensive survey of nearly 6000 parents and children
Jennifer uncovers what kids truly need from the adults in
their lives a sense of mattering when parents and educators adopt
the language and values of mattering children develop the
resilience, self confidence and psychological security they need
to thrive. In our discussion. Jennifer discusses the crisis
plaguing today's teens but also a practical framework for
positive change packed with memorable stories. This
discussion urges us to rethink our approach to achievement and
prioritize the well being of our children. And now let's learn
more about our esteemed guest Jennifer Henry Wallace. Thank
you for choosing passion struck and choosing me to be your host
and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life.
Now let that journey began.
I am absolutely thrilled and honored to have Jennifer Wallace
on passion struck. Welcome, Jennifer, thank you so much for
having me. And as I did my research, I found that you like
to go by Jenny. So that's what I'm going to refer to you as for
the rest of the interview. Perfect. Jenny, I'd like to
start these interviews out by giving the audience an
opportunity to get to know you a little bit. And I understand
that after graduating from Harvard, you worked for 60
minutes as an associate producer for eight years. Can you share
any special memories from your time working with the likes of
Mike Wallace? Lesley Stahl, Andy Rooney at Bradley? Dickey Mabry,
Brian Gumbel, I can't believe the people that you got to meet.
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: It was amazing Steve craft at Bradley,
my gosh, it was a couple of decades ago now. Plus, it was
extraordinary to be surrounded by such challenge. And I don't
know if you know this, but 60 minutes, at least back then
operated very much like many production companies. So I
worked exclusively with Morley Safer, I would find stories I
would go on the ground and pre interview people helped to put
together a wish list of who we'd want on to talk about the story
that we were going to shoot with him draft some questions do then
the producer and I would work out scripts, just giving more or
less a kind of outline. Morley in particular, he had a very old
fashioned typewriter. And so he would get our drafted script and
he'd within 30 seconds, improve it to a level that would just
had the touch of Morley Safer. I feel like I learned from the
very best in the business. And just as a personal aside, Mike
Wallace was also working there at the time, I didn't get a
chance to actually work with him. But he, for several years,
tried to set me up with his grandson. And for several years,
I said that is so kind, but I'm good. I have a boyfriend. And
then I broke up with my boyfriend. And he asked me to
just go on one date. And so I thought, Alright, I'll just go
on one date, and then he won't he'll stop asking. And that was
23 years ago. So worked out.
John Miles: I wondered, but I wasn't going to ask if there was
a connection there. What a story.
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: It was a good story. As Mike said, he
just does another little aside, Mike said that he would
chaperone the date. And then Arafat called and said he would
allow Mike to interview him. And so I had to go and fly to the
Middle East and Peter and I had our first date, without Mike
Wallace chaperoning worked out.
John Miles: Well, speaking of the Middle East, and I just
thought of this a couple years ago, I got to meet Laura Logan.
And it was interesting, and I know she was on 60 minutes as
well. But she was doing this very hush talk to a number of
veterans like myself. And this was just after we had pulled out
from Afghanistan. And I didn't realize until I heard her speak
with so much passion, just how important to her as a
journalist. The Afghani interpreters were, as they were
two soldiers in the field. She talked about on one or two
occasions, they actually saved her life. She was as large an
advocate, as the service members were in getting some of these
Afghani interpreters and loyalists to our cars out of the
country. I don't think we think about the harm that some of
these journalists put themselves in to tell their stories.
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Yeah, and also the harm that the
interpreters do to helping the journalists tell their stories.
It's really It's extraordinary. Talk about purpose and meaning
when you're risking your life for a cause. That is the
deepest, I think sense of purpose.
John Miles: Well, I want to ask you just one more question about
your time at 60 minutes. I understand that you were part of
the team that won the Robert F. Kennedy journalism award for a
story that you did on homeless children. Can you talk about
that a little bit?
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Yeah, that story has really stuck with
me. We were covering a school that is now no longer in
existence called the Pappas school in Arizona, and it was
the first school that was set up exclusively for children who
were homeless. The Coalition for the Homeless, the National
Coalition for the Homeless, based in Washington DC are
advocates for the homeless. And they, understandably were quite
concerned with separating out homeless students from the rest
of the population. Was it stigmatizing were the standards
is high. This was in their eyes, the wrong approach. And so we
went on the ground and We interviewed families. And I just
remember my first day there. I met a family. I have never
really talked about this. I met a family of five. The mother was
a single mother on and off with her husband. And she was living
in a motel. And it was infested with mice and with bugs. And the
water came out Brown, she had no place to refrigerate things for
the kids. And it was really just musty and horrible. I was
talking with her daughter, who was about 10 years old at the
time, and she later went on and was interviewed for the piece.
And I asked her about the school she was attending the Pappas
school. And Morley asked her what is it? That is her greatest
wish, and she said, to have a place to lay my head, that is
safe. That is my greatest wish, and the family had been going
from motel to living in a car. And that stuck with me. The
homeless is something that I've been passionate about from my
childhood I, when I was an undergraduate, I worked at the
only student run homeless shelter in the country, which
was up at Harvard and Harvard Square. What I learned in
working with the homeless people that I met, are lessons that I
mean, Trump anything I learned in college, and I'm currently on
the board of the Coalition for the Homeless here in New York,
and I can't think of a better use of my time than helping our
most vulnerable neighbors.
John Miles: I'm so glad you brought that up. I, as part of a
church program, spent a number of years where when it got cold
down here in Tampa, Florida, which doesn't happen that often.
But when it did, I would volunteer at the homeless
shelters. And what really struck me from talking to so many of
the people, many of which were veterans, but there were doctors
and lawyers and people from all walks of life. And I remember
talking to this prominent cardiologist who was now
homeless, and he had a mental breakdown over the death of a
patient, he thought he could save and ended up turning to
drugs. And it led to one thing after another, he lost his
family, he lost his medical license, he lost everything. And
he was just telling me about how close any of us are to being in
the same position. But then how difficult it is once you find
yourself there to climb out of it. Because there are not very
many avenues to it. I think it's similar to coming out of the
prison system, I would guess, that they face so what a worthy
cause you're involved in. So thank you for sharing that.
Today we're going to be talking speaking of children, a lot
about the topic of children and teenagers. And you wrote this
incredible new book, which releases this week called Never
enough when achievement culture becomes toxic, and what we can
do about it. And I wanted to ask you, what inspired you to delve
into the topic of toxic achievement culture and write
this book.
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: So in academic circles, when a
researcher is studying a topic that is close to their own
hearts, they nickname it me search. I will say writing this
book was very much a me search project. I'm a journalist, I
grew up in high achieving communities went to high
achieving schools. I have three teenagers and I was noticing how
different my child's childhoods were compared to my own. I was
confused by it. And I remember standing on the sidelines of my
eight year olds travel soccer team in the sleeting rain and
looking around and thinking, how did we get here? I'd traveled an
hour and a half to take them to a game. How did we get here? Why
are we even doing this? Why are we all standing on the sidelines
of eight year olds devoting our days to travel soccer what has
happened over the last several years. So those things were just
percolating in my mind. And then in 2019, I wrote an article for
The Washington Post about now students in what researchers
call high achieving schools. Those are public and private
schools around the country where most of the students go on to
four year colleges where the standardized test scores are
high where AP classes are offered. Students attending
these competitive schools are now officially an at risk group.
After kids and poverty hits with incarcerated parents, recent
immigrants, children living in foster care, it's now these
groups and they are at risk for Clinical rates of anxiety,
depression, substance abuse disorder, anywhere from two to
six time, national averages. My kids are attending these
competitive, high achieving schools and I wanted to know
what I could do in my own home to buffer against it to protect
them.
John Miles: I was going to ask you about that article. So I'm
glad you shared it. I'm interested to know what impact
did it receive? And did the response surprise you?
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Oh, my gosh, the response really
surprised me. It went viral heads of schools shared it with
parents in their communities. Other parents talked about how
it was posted on the school bulletin board. As soon as you
walk in, I received countless emails to my personal website,
asking me for more information. What really started me on this
journey to unpack why achievement has become toxic in
so many children's lives and what we could do about it. So it
was a big impact. I will tell you speaking of surprises, and
impact. Before I wrote the book, I wanted to make sure that the
achievement pressure that I was reading about and hearing about
and seeing in my own community, I wanted to make sure it wasn't
just a few select communities around the country or confined
to the coasts. With the help of a researcher at the Harvard
Graduate School of Education. I conducted a first of its kind
parenting survey. And I wanted to get to the roots of what
parents were feeling. And I wanted to know, was this
something that was being felt everywhere? So the researcher
said to me, okay, we need to get a sample size of 1000. I said,
Okay, all right. I think that's doable. And then within a few
days, over 6500 parents had filled out the parenting survey,
it had shown up on parenting websites. What I found was that
this was not confined to the coasts at the end of the survey,
I asked parents, if they would be willing to be interviewed for
my book, either anonymously or with their names attached to
email me, and I left my email at the end of the survey and
hundreds of parents reached out. That set me on a journey, I
traveled to Maine, I traveled to Washington State to Cleveland,
Ohio, to Jackson, Wyoming, to Connecticut to Pennsylvania to
Florida, I went all over the country, to interview families.
I spoke with families who had lost loved ones to suicide,
whose kids had dropped out of school because of the intense
pressures. And then I started shifting my focus and looking
for who were the kids who were thriving, despite the pressures
that these parents had identified in the survey, who
was thriving, what did these kids have in common? What was
home life? Like? What was school like? What were their pure
relationships? Like? What did they see as their place in the
larger community, I wanted to know if there were common
threads, I found about 15 things that these healthy achievers had
in common as I was looking for a framework to present my findings
to parents, I came across an idea, a psychological construct
called mattering and mattering. It's been around since the
1980s. It was first conceptualized by Maurice
Rosenberg who conceptualized self esteem. And what he found
was that teenagers who enjoyed a healthy level of self esteem,
felt like they mattered to their parents that they were important
and significant. Over the last several decades, the research on
mattering has started to really pick up. And a definition that
really resonates with me, what I saw in the healthy students that
I interviewed for this book, is that these students felt valued
for who they were at their core, by their family, by their
schools, by their communities. And they were depended on to add
meaningful value back to their families, to their schools, and
to their larger communities that developed this high level of
mattering, that served as a protective shield against the
stress and anxiety in their environments. It didn't mean
that these kids didn't have failures, it didn't mean that
they weren't anxious and depressed sometimes, but
mattering served as like a buoy that would help pick them up
when they stumbled. That was a long answer to your question.
John Miles: Kenny, I typically prepare that 30 questions for
these interviews, because I never know what direction
they're gonna go. And sometimes they go just like I want them to
and then sometimes I get answers like that. And I'm very glad I
prepare more questions, because you covered about three or four
that I was going to ask you intend to answer, but I'm glad
that you brought up mattering because I recently did an
interview with Seth Godin. And he has written a new book if you
haven't read it called the song of signal I can see it's an
incredible book very short. And to the point, he and I had an
enlightening conversation about how so much of today's work
environment dismisses the importance of people feeling
that what they do matters. It's another thing. When I think
about it, as you brought up about its impact on children
that got me thinking, if so many people today who are raising
kids feel like they lack significance in what they're
doing. Because I think that this is a huge issue right now, to
why 85% of people feel disengaged with their jobs. Do
you think there's any tied to that? And this idea of lack of
significance for adults, and then it's getting passed on to
our children, and they're feeling this lack of mattering
as well, because of the pressure, and maybe the
influence that their parents are putting on them?
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Oh, yes, I will say the most
surprising thing I found in the research was when you have a
child in distress, the number one intervention, according to
decades of resilience research is to make sure the primary
caregivers who are most often the parents, that their well
being their mental health, their support system, is intact,
because a child's resilience rests fundamentally on a
parent's resilience. And a parent's resilience rests
fundamentally on the depth and nurturing of their
relationships. So when you have parents all day long, going to
the office where eight 910 hours a day, they are made to feel
that they don't matter. They don't have a voice. They could
be the next layoff. They're not recognized for the efforts
they're putting in. How could they then show up every day
after work to their children, as first responders to their kids
distress? Where do they have that resilience? Where do they
have that strength when it's been knocked out of them? Eight
910 hours a day? I think there's absolutely a connection between
not mattering at work. And both not having the resilience to be
there in the way we need to be for our children in distress.
But also that if we're not modeling our own mattering,
where are our children learning it, children learn their sense
of mattering first at home, that's the first place where
they learn whether they are valued and significant, and
whether their self worth is not contingent on their performance.
They're growing up in environments and we're all
living in environments where our worth to our companies is 100%
contingent on our performance. So as a society, we don't do a
good job on delivering on mattering. The researchers who
study it, say that after the need for food and shelter, it is
the need to matter that drives all of human behavior, for
better and for worse, for better when we feel like we matter. We
show up to the world in positive ways we see abundance, we see
cooperation instead of hyper competition. When we don't feel
like we matter when we have low levels of mattering. It can
cause us to act out in destructive ways. Oh, I don't
matter to you will I'll show you I matter a school shooter is the
most tragic example. A long answer to your question. But
yes, the adults in children's lives, teachers, parents,
coaches, their mattering. The researchers who study mattering
are saying that the levels of mattering are the lowest ever in
the adult populations that they are surveying.
John Miles: But one of the most fundamental is I to have a book
coming out in February, I devoted the introduction of it
on this whole topic, because I think so many people today,
myself included, wear a mask of pretense, because we are trying
to live up to societal norms of what we should be, instead of
living the authentic life that we're supposed to be living and
I think that this is just a huge issue that is not getting
reported enough. I'd like you agree that it then gets passed
down to the kids who will then pass it down to someone else
unless we put a stop to it, which is one of the things I'm
trying to do in my book. But I have another concept that I have
brought up. I don't talk about it that frequently, what you
just said about people who feel like they don't matter or don't
have significance. And they end up doing things that compromise
their goals, I think we end up becoming our own visionary
arsonist, we end up because of a lack of the things that we feel
arson, the very visions and goals and aspirations that we
long for because of this feeling that I throw that out and see
what reaction you might have to it.
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: I would agree with you, I went in
search of a solution to that never enough feeling that you're
describing. I describe the never enough feeling of our young
students. But I also talk about the never enough feeling of the
adults in their lives. What the research points to as an
intervention to solve this never enough, I'm not good enough. My
worth is contingent. It sounds like a simple solution, because
it is, but it's actually quite profound and deep. So just as
our children need to be loved unconditionally, by us to be
seen and known for the unique people, they are at their core
away from their achievements. The adults in their lives also
need to be surrounded by people, adults in their lives, who see
who they are at their core, who love them unconditionally, who
remind them of their worth, when they're feeling down. As I was
traveling the country meeting parents in these communities, it
wasn't that the parents didn't have friends, they pretty much
all had friends, what they didn't have was the time and the
bandwidth, to invest in these kinds of friendships, these
relationships, so that they could be a deep source of
support a relationship, someone they could come to when they're
in distress, when they're questioning their worth. We just
don't have these solid deep relationships anymore. And that
is the epidemic of loneliness that our Surgeon General is
talking about. We have prioritized as you said, what
researchers would call materialistic goals, career
success, material success, over intrinsic goals of caring
relationships of being a good neighbor, with those intrinsic
goals give us is social proof that we matter. We could get the
big promotion and we could get the fancy car and we could feel
like we matter. But deep down we know it's just these things that
are the facade of mattering. When you invest in your
friendships when you are vulnerable. When you learn how
to depend on people and and allow people to depend on you,
you get a sense of value and worth that really gives proof to
your value in a deep, meaningful, profound way.
John Miles: Thank you so much for sharing that that was really
profound. I just wanted to give the audience two great episodes
that they could refer to. For more on this topic. One was with
Dr. Julianne Holt Wanstead, who's a professor at Brigham
Young, and the foremost expert on loneliness and the epidemic
in the world. And we had a great conversation about its causes,
and what she thinks are some of the solutions to addressing it
if that's something that our listeners feeling. I also did a
great episode with Bob waldinger, who leads the Harvard
adult study of advanced aging, which found that relationships
amongst everything else are the key to living a happy life. And
that is a really good episode that really goes into this
importance of relationships regardless of age. I just wanted
to bring those two up. And speaking of interviews, last
year, I was fortunate enough to interview my friend Susan Cain,
and I talked to her about her book bittersweet, but during our
discussion, she talked about visiting her alma mater,
Princeton, and discovering that so many of the students were
falling into what she introduced to me was the effortless
perfection trap. And I wanted to ask you, how does this
effortless perfection relate to toxic achievement? Are they the
same thing?
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: They're definitely related. Effortless
perfection. The way I understand it, is the idea that you have to
have a facade schools call it the Penn face University of
Pennsylvania has the Penn phase where you don't show your
stress. Stanford has the the Stanford duck move or something
like that, where you can envision a duck furiously
paddling under the water, but on the surface there gliding, that
effortless perfection that facade creates a barrier of
really being truly known. So the roots of of perfectionism, are
really take place in childhood, the researchers that I spoke to
about this, and I spoke with the leading researchers on
perfectionism. And actually one of them Gordon flat, who created
the perfectionism scale that researchers use, has actually
turned his attention to mattering because he sees it as
a solution to perfectionism. And in his view, and I have to agree
with him. There's no such thing as a healthy perfectionist, that
perfectionism is rooted in childhood, often the belief by a
child that they need to be perfect in order to be worthy of
a parent's love and support. Perfectionism then is really a
life saving connection to a parent, right? If you feel as
though you have to be perfect to be loved. If you're not perfect,
you'll be abandoned, you will choose perfection every time.
But what that does is over time, it really deteriorates the
person's self esteem, they can adopt a false sense of self,
where they basically go through life, pleasing other people and
and presenting themselves in a way that others they think
others want them to be. What the perfectionist lacks, is the
vulnerability to be really known. That is such a painful
state of affairs, I will say because I asked researchers, how
can I prevent this perfectionism from taking root in my own
families in my own children and Rick wise board at Harvard's
making Karen common said to me, when I was asking, Does praise
play into perfectionism your praise your kids too much do
they feel like they always have to be perfect. He said to me,
the self become stronger, less by being praised them by being
known. If we want to try to help prevent perfectionism from
taking root in our kids. One effective way we can do that is
by getting to know our kids intimately. Getting a PhD in
what makes them uniquely ticked that is separate from any of
their achievements. Like, for my son, it's his sense of humor,
and really taking note of that and noticing our kids at every
term.
John Miles: As a parent of 19, and 25 year old kids, I can
completely relate to what you're saying about going back and
getting a PhD into better understanding their minds, and
their behaviors and how to influence it and better ways. It
became very apparent to me as early as my kids were in middle
school of the Mental Health Crisis amongst youngsters today.
In fact, I was interviewing Harvard psychiatrist and
researcher, Dr. Chris Palmer, who came out with a great book
last year called brain energy. And he has been studying this
too. In our interview, he talked about the steady rise in all
mental illness, and that it is especially acute in younger
adults. And this rise is often attributed to COVID, or things
like social media use. But I only think that there are a
small part of the overall problem. And it's something that
you argue, as well that you think it has more to do with
achievement pressure, I was hoping you could share your
insights on how this push that children feel to succeed is
directly contributing towards childhood suffering.
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: When you look at what is the biggest
task in adolescence, it is developing a strong sense of
self. And knowing who you are and building your identity. When
you are getting messages in your environment, in your society, on
social media in the classroom at home. That achievement comes
first. That's what matters. Most kids lose the time and the
energy that should be spent figuring out who they are what
makes them uniquely tick. And instead they focus on these
external hoops to jump and the path that's laid out before
them. And you talked about the suffering of adolescents and
young adults and I interviewed and surveyed 518 to 30 year
olds, and I asked them some open ended questions and they talked
about the meaninglessness of their lives. One in particular
said he devoted his entire childhood to getting into an Ivy
League school, he got into the Ivy League school and dropped
out because he was completely burnt out what we do when we
focus so much on achievement, we prevent our kids from developing
their true authentic selves. That is the greatest task for
adolescents that is what enables a child to go into the world and
understand who they uniquely are, what are their strengths,
what do they bring to the world? How can they contribute in a
meaningful way, so that they can see themselves as part of a
whole?
John Miles: It's interesting earlier this week interviewed
Dr. Who tandra Wadhwa who teach is at the Columbia Business
School, when he started teaching at Columbia 20 years ago, he
started to observe that every single thing that they were
teaching these future leaders was how to lead others. But they
were not doing any coursework on how to lead themselves, he ended
up proposing to the dean of a course called personal success,
which has now become one of the most popular courses at the
business school. And he has recently come out with a book
called inner mastery, outer impact. What he was trying to do
here with this book was to show people that if you want to have
that outer impact of influencing the world, that you really have
to know and understand your authentic self in order to do
that. And I think what you're saying, in many ways, is some of
the same things is teaching people to really get grounded,
and to be happy with who they are, instead of trying to live
up to all the hype that surrounds us, and is thrust at
us at what seems to be all angles.
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: I'll give your listeners a really
tangible thing that they can do. Many adults and children don't
know what their natural strengths are, who their deep
authentic self is, how they show up to the world what strengths
they show, there is something called the via character survey,
which was developed by the leading researchers on positive
psychology, Marty Seligman and Christopher Peterson and
Michigan, and also dozens of others, researchers, and it's a
free online quiz that adults can take. There's also a via quiz
first for children. And what it does is it gives you a sense of
what your natural strengths are. And then what you can do with
your kids. I've done this with my kids, our whole family has
taken the survey, when my kids are having an obstacle, we look
at their strengths. And I say which strength could you use to
overcome that obstacle? What can you do? So for example, my
daughter, when we took the quiz, she was in eighth grade. And
there was drama in the lunchroom, she was going through
like a period of lunchroom drama. And I said, look at your
strengths. What could you use to solve this problem? She said,
humor, because she's very sarcastic and funny. She said, I
can make a joke, the next time somebody tries to provoke
somebody at the table, I can make it a joke. And she did she
got through it, I highly recommend you can just Google up
via character survey. It's free, it's 10 to 15 minutes. It's
scientifically validated and will give you a sense of what
your strengths are and what your kids strengths are, you can
reinforce them and help pointed out to them. That's one way to
get a PhD and your kids
John Miles: follow on question to that would be how has your
own research influenced your parenting approach to promote
healing? And what I like to call intentional growth?
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Oh my gosh, in so many ways, I feel
very grateful that I had four years of learning from the
leading researchers and psychologists and speaking with
literally hundreds of families and educators around the
country, I've started to already implement things in my own
house. So the first thing, the leading researcher, Sonia
Luthor, who did a lot of this research that I quote in the
book, she's recently passed away, but I asked her, what's
the first thing I should do? I now I'm getting this
information, how do I start implementing it in my home. And
she said, I have two phrases for you to keep in mind. Minimize
criticism, prioritize affection. And so that is just a simple way
of remembering what our job is, as parents, she also said, make
your home a haven from the pressure. We all think it's our
job to raise our kids to reach their potential. But they're
living in a toxic environment where they are getting these
messages, to achieve more, do more, reach higher, and that
home needs to be a place to recover from those pressures.
One other thing I learned from a parent that I interviewed was to
make the thinking explicit, meaning that you love your child
unconditionally. You love them for who they are, at their core,
make that explicit. And she showed an experiment with a $20
bill, whenever her children come to her with a failure or they
didn't get on the ATM or they didn't do well on a test or
their friends. Were icing them out. She would reach into her
wallet and she'd grab a $20 bill and she'd say to her child, do
you want this? And the kid would say yes, of course. Then she
would say Okay, hang on. She crumpled up to $20 Bill sheet,
stomp it on the floor, get it all dirty, and then very
dramatically dunking it in a glass of water. And then she
would hold up the $20 bill to her kid and she would say Do you
still want it To the soggy, dirty, $20 bill, and the child
would say, yes, of course. And she said, like you're worth,
this $20 Bill is like you're worth, it doesn't matter if you
are dirty, if you are wrinkled, if you are sopping wet, if you
have gotten cut from a team, if you've gotten a bad grade, your
worth is your worth, like this $20 bill, it never changed us.
And to me that was such a profound, and in a way
countercultural way of teaching kids that they are worthy for
who they are not their failures, and not their successes either.
John Miles: I think that's a great story and a great
illustration of a parenting technique that the listeners
could use. I know it's difficult in my case, and I think all kids
are very different. My son, we had to push him more to achieve,
at least at first and then reached that development stage
where he got it. Now he has done extremely well after going
through that tiny period. My daughter, on the other hand, is
one who puts the pressure completely on herself. And we
try to back away and tell her, we're not expecting you to do
any of the things that you're doing. And we don't expect you
to put the pressure on. But it's difficult when they continue to
do that, even though everything you were trying to do is to take
that feeling away from them. Do you have any advice if a parent
is facing that situation?
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: I interviewed a few parents like
that in my book, one of the mothers that I interviewed
talked about taking the kettle off the burner, which she did
was what you're saying she was very explicit about her
expectations for her child. And it was in many ways
countercultural, she said, I don't want you taking all the AP
classes, I want you to be ambitious. Basically, for more,
I want you to be ambitious in your friendships, I want you to
be ambitious about your health. I want you to be ambitious about
your relationships. What this mother was telling me is, as a
parent, we can guide our children. It's hard because your
daughter is older parents who have kids living at home, have
more control in a way they can put up those bumpers, they could
say the lights are out. I had another mother I interviewed,
the internet went out at 1130 at night, every night, no matter
what even if her son had a test, they know it. And that internet
went off so that her son could get eight hours of sleep before
school, there are things we can do when our kids are younger to
kind to try to help them build a life that they will not have to
one day try to escape from with drugs and alcohol and
overworking. But it's hard. We live in a culture that sends
those messages to us that we are only worth our next achievement.
That's what I'm trying to do with this book is to help
parents go back to the very basics of valuing our kids for
who they are at their core because actually what that will
do is give their kids this healthy fuel that will last
throughout life and help to prevent burnout.
John Miles: I'm glad you brought up the whole sleep aspect
because that's something I did want to cover with you last year
I had an enlightening conversation with Dr. Sara
Mednick, who's a prominent research expert on sleep at
University of California Irvine, and she wrote the book, The
Power of the downstate which is about the importance of
downtime, and rest and downtime are often overlooked in high
achieving and grind culture environments. I know. For me, it
certainly was when I was in the military, and when I've been in
some of these high pressure jobs, but it's also something
that as you were just explaining our kids feel as well. Why is it
so crucial to teach high achieving kids and those
immersed in this growing culture, how to rest and why
it's important to help them understand why it's so vital to
do so. So
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Lisa demore is a child psychologist
that I interviewed for this book, she said to me, sleep is
the hill she will die on as a parent that sleep in her
research and other research. Sleep is the glue she said that
holds humans together without sleep, you're already operating
without the same coping skills you can turn to unhealthy habits
to keep going. Kids need to be given this message and we do as
adults as well in our grind culture, that we are worthy of
rest, that we are worthy of taking the time to do more than
just work in our capitalistic structure. It's not just rest to
be more productive. It's rest because we are worthy of rest.
Because every moment in our lives isn't about achieving
something In our home, sleep is hugely important. And I also
model it, I go to bed very early, and I wake up very early.
What that does in making the parameters around sleep is that
you help your child become more energy efficient. You say to
them, you cannot stay up until 3am, that's not going to happen
in our house, the internet is going to go off. So you have to
get your work done, you have to be more efficient in getting
your work done. I have more tips like that in the book, but it is
the glue that holds us together mental health, achievement or
relationships. We need sleep, to show up to be our best selves.
John Miles: I don't know about you, but I certainly feel it
when I am performing at my best and sleeping well. And when I'm
not getting those rims in and feel like I have alternative
fog. We've spent a lot of time today talking about unhealthy
achievers, I wanted to talk about healthy achievers. And
when examining healthy achievers, what commonalities do
they share? What types of mindsets and behaviors do they
exhibit?
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Yeah, for this book, I went in search
of what did these healthy achievers had in common? What I
will say is they first of all mattered to themselves. They
knew that they were worthy of rest, they understood that when
they worked best, they put time in their calendar to actually
take a break one student I talked to actually had in his
calendar, take these two hours for yourself. First of all, they
had this sense of value, and they protected themselves. They
didn't drink excessively or use drugs because they didn't want
to do that to themselves. The other thing that these healthy
achievers had in common is that they knew their strengths, their
parents and other adults in their lives, helped them use
those strengths and match them to genuine needs in the
community. So it wasn't, oh, I want to do a clothing drive
because I want to get rid of the clothes in my closets. But
actually having the tools to go and find out what is needed in
my community right now. What can I do to help fill that need, so
centering the need on the people who actually need the help, one
of the things that really stood out to me was that their parents
gave them the mindset and the skill set of interdependence. So
often as parents, we believe that our job is to raise
independent adults, which of course it is like, of course,
that's a priority for me. But what I have found to be more
profound is to raise children and young adults who believe
that they are worthy of reaching out for help, and that they are
worthy relationship partners who can be depended on for others,
what these parents focused on, was helping their child
recognize that it takes courage to ask for help. They modeled
this behavior for their own children. Actually, this in my
own home. My daughter was struggling on a paper. She was
in eighth grade. And I, her teacher had given her a lot of
comments. And I pulled up the first article I wrote for the
science section of the Washington Post by a very
seasoned editor, and it had tons of edits on it. And I said to
her look, it was read, it was a bloodbath. I at first was
embarrassed to need this much help, right? I'm a journalist,
why do I need this much help. But then I looked at it as this
editor thought I was worthy enough to invest in. And so I
was grateful for the time that they invested in it. And so they
helped their kids understand the mindsets of interdependence, not
talking about codependence, I'm talking about this mutual,
healthy reliance. That was a major takeaway for me.
John Miles: Yeah, I had a similar experience. When I was
in the military. I worked for a gentleman named commander Bill
Fitzsimmons. And he was a stickler on writing. And I
think, because of him, my writing is what it is today,
because I can't tell you how many times I'd have to rewrite
documents for him about two years later. Finally, I think
for the first time, he gave me one that was completely clean,
and said, I think he finally got it.
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: But isn't that amazing? Isn't that
amazing how he invested in you. It really makes you feel valued.
John Miles: It does. I'm sure he didn't want to have to do that.
I didn't think they were badly written myself. But he wanted
them to emulate him because these messages were coming from
his authority. And so I had to make sure I got his voice right
and how he liked to have things communicated. It was such an
important learning lesson for me. Speaking of learning, what
steps can schools and educators take to create a healthier
academic environment? that supports students emotional well
being, mental health and growth rather than solely focusing on
STEM courses and performance.
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Yeah, well, I think educators are wise
on the research, I think it is accepted now in really every
school, that relationships and connection are needed for
learning to happen. So connections between students and
teachers, connections between students and students
particularly well, in COVID. What I found in a lot of schools
that that I was speaking with, is that they were really
prioritizing relationships. Before rigor, I would say,
that's one thing a school can do is to really drill down and make
sure that every student in that classroom feels like they
matter, to at least one of their peers, and one adult at school.
And that is the pathway to learning. So schools are very
strong about connection and belonging, they understand its
importance mattering is belonging, an action that would
be a first step is to make sure that every student feels like
they matter to one friend. And to one adult, there are schools
that do this, to have nonprofits like authentic connections or
challenge success, come into your school and give you a
mental health wellbeing card. Really look at the mental health
of your students. And your teachers we talked about earlier
that a child's resilience rests fundamentally on their
caregivers resilience, it's also true in the classroom, a teacher
needs resilience, they need to feel like they matter to so that
they can be the source of support for the students in
their classroom. Many teachers today are experiencing levels of
burnout, we have never seen, I would say prioritize also the
teachers in your school and the educators and make sure they
have supportive relationships within the environment for them
to be resilient.
John Miles: Okay, and then, the last thing I wanted to ask you,
before we just go into a couple of final questions is in the
book, you offer a toolkit for positive change. And you've been
talking about some of the strategies throughout but can
you highlight what this toolkit is and maybe just give the
listener an idea of if they read the book, what this toolkit
might help them to do.
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: At the end of the book, I give how to
type tips for things that parents can do within their own
home questions for reflection, how to prioritize affection, how
to make the thinking visible, things like that. Then I also
talk about how to for educators and schools and what they could
be focusing on and centering mattering in their communities.
I also talk about the wider community and I talked about the
importance of community wide well being and belonging, our
kids are not suffering in isolation. This is a systems
problem. Finally, I have advice for at the university level,
it's a long list, it's several pages long, of what from the
micro home to the macro society, what we could do to start
buffering against this excessive pressure to achieve.
John Miles: I have done a number of episodes around systems
change. And it is so interesting how so many things whether it's
climate change, or world hunger that we're facing, or
loneliness, are going to require a systems level change to make
the wholehearted efforts and concerted efforts that we need
to see things move from where they are today to where we want
them to go in the future. I completely agree with you. On
that point. I wanted to end by asking you, if a listener or
reader of the book picked it up or listen to today's episode,
what are some of the most important things that you would
want them to get from their time investing in reading or
listening to this podcast?
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: I think the first thing I would
want them to know, and to keep in mind is that as the adults in
our children's lives, we need to start prioritizing our own
mental health and wellbeing, and firming up our own support
system. So that we can be those sorts those first responders to
our kids struggles. And we do not live in a society that
supports adult mental health, whether it be at work, or in the
larger community. That's one thing that I'd really like
listeners to think about is how important it is to have people
in our lives. Who will put our oxygen mask on for us we always
hear oh, as parents, you have to put your oxygen mask on first.
Well, when you are really desperate, what you really need
is someone in your life to see that and reach for the mask and
put it on for you that took me a long time to actually understand
how important it is to invest in our relationships for the
betterment of the people. well within our home. So that's one
thing. Another thing I would say is to learn about mattering,
because mattering, not only will help our children, it'll help us
in the workplace. It'll help us in our larger communities. It
is, to me, the most foundational part of living a life of meaning
and fulfillment, and well being is to live a life of mattering.
John Miles: Well, I love that you ended on that. And I'm gonna
have the book everywhere in the show notes, etc. If people
wanted to learn more about you, where's the best place for them
to go?
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Yeah, you can head over to my website,
Jennifer B wallace.com. And if you preorder the book, where you
order the book, there's some extra resources, exclusive stuff
on my website, you could also head over to the mastery
movement.com. That's a nonprofit that I co founded with some
highly esteemed colleagues to bring that mattering from the
ivory tower into people's homes and workplaces and communities
and schools so that we could actually use the research and
implemented in our everyday lives.
John Miles: Well, Jenny, thank you so much for being on the
show today. It was such an honor and to the audience. This is
such a well researched and written book. I wholeheartedly
encourage those who have kids to pick this up, because I think
it's so important to helping you go down that path of earning
that PhD to better understanding them and why that's so
important.
Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Thank you so much for having me. This
has been great. I thoroughly
John Miles: enjoyed that interview with Jennifer Wallace.
And I wanted to thank Jennifer Stephanie Brody and also Penguin
Random House for the privilege and honor of having her appear
on today's show links to all things Jennifer will be in the
show notes of passion. struck.com videos are on YouTube
at both passion struck clips as well as John airmiles. As I
mentioned at the beginning of the episode, we are now on
syndicated radio in the brushwood media network. Catch
us on your evening commute every Monday and Friday from five to
6pm. Eastern Time links will also be in the shownotes
advertiser deals and discount codes are in one convenient
place and passion stripe.com/deals. And I have
some exciting news. My book passion struct is now available
for pre order on Amazon and I'll also have a link for it in the
show notes. You can sign up for our newsletter on passion
spark.com Or you can catch us on all the social platforms at John
R miles. You're about to hear a preview of the passionate strike
podcast interview I did with Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor, we discussed
her transformative book whole brain living or Dr. Taylor
guides us on a groundbreaking understanding that led her to
introduce the concept of four distinct characters within each
of us left thinking left emotion, right emotion and right
thinking empowering us to recognize their presence in our
everyday lives.
Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor: I call it the brain huddle because there
are these four very specific groups of cells that result in
very specific modules, abilities, skill sets, if I'm
really four major characters, then getting them on the same
page is to me, I truly believe the evolution of humanity. I
think this is the ultimate goal. Because that way, then we have
the ability to use all four skill sets, but to do it in a
peaceful way motivated by the collective whole of what we are
of humanity as the value base. So I truly believe that
wholegrain living He is the embodiment of the evolution of
humanity's
John Miles: remember that we rise by lifting others. So share
the show with those that you care about. And if you found
today's episode useful, then definitely share it with those
who could use the advice that we gave on today's program. In the
meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so
that you can live what you listen until next time, go out
there and become passion struck