1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,250 John Miles: Coming up next on passion struck, 2 00:00:02,280 --> 00:00:05,940 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: I will say the most surprising thing I 3 00:00:05,940 --> 00:00:13,110 found in the research was that when you have a child in 4 00:00:13,110 --> 00:00:17,400 distress, the number one intervention, according to 5 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,270 decades of resilience research is to make sure the primary 6 00:00:21,270 --> 00:00:25,380 caregivers who are most often the parents, that their well 7 00:00:25,380 --> 00:00:31,350 being their mental health, their support system is intact because 8 00:00:31,380 --> 00:00:35,850 a child's resilience rests fundamentally on a parent's 9 00:00:35,850 --> 00:00:40,680 resilience, and a parent's resilience rests fundamentally 10 00:00:40,860 --> 00:00:45,090 on the depth and nurturing of their relationships. 11 00:00:45,300 --> 00:00:48,090 John Miles: Welcome to passion struck. Hi, I'm your host, John 12 00:00:48,090 --> 00:00:52,050 R. Miles and on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips and 13 00:00:52,050 --> 00:00:55,740 guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their 14 00:00:55,740 --> 00:00:59,760 wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our 15 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:04,170 mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so 16 00:01:04,170 --> 00:01:07,290 that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're 17 00:01:07,290 --> 00:01:11,430 new to the show. I offer advice and answer listener questions on 18 00:01:11,430 --> 00:01:14,760 Fridays. We have long form interviews the rest of the week 19 00:01:14,790 --> 00:01:19,050 with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, 20 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,770 creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, 21 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,940 visionaries and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become 22 00:01:27,030 --> 00:01:30,720 passion struck. Hello everyone and welcome back to Episode 335. 23 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,510 A passion struck consistently ranked by Apple is one of the 24 00:01:33,510 --> 00:01:36,210 top 10 most popular health podcasts. Thank you to all of 25 00:01:36,210 --> 00:01:38,760 you have come back weekly to listen and learn how to live 26 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,760 better be better and impact the world ash unstruck is now on 27 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,400 syndicated radio on the brushwood media network. Catch 28 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,640 us monday and friday from five to 6pm. Eastern Time, links will 29 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,250 be in the show notes. If you're new to the show. Thank you so 30 00:01:50,250 --> 00:01:52,650 much for being here. Or you simply want to introduce this to 31 00:01:52,650 --> 00:01:55,260 a friend or a family member. We now have episodes starter packs, 32 00:01:55,290 --> 00:01:57,600 which are collections of our fans favorite episodes that we 33 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,150 organize into convenient topics that give any new listener a 34 00:02:00,150 --> 00:02:02,250 great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the 35 00:02:02,250 --> 00:02:04,680 show either check it out on Spotify, where you can get a 36 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,920 passion start.com/starter packs to get started in case you 37 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,860 missed it. Last week I interviewed Rebecca Rosen who is 38 00:02:10,860 --> 00:02:13,860 a psychic medium and author of the new book what is heaven 39 00:02:13,890 --> 00:02:17,250 Rebecca serves as a mediator between two realms the physical 40 00:02:17,250 --> 00:02:20,520 world which entails everyday problems and the spiritual world 41 00:02:20,550 --> 00:02:23,610 where she has gained insight revealing that every individual 42 00:02:23,640 --> 00:02:26,760 is born with a unique mission and it's our responsibility to 43 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,060 fulfill it in this earth school. I also interviewed Jason Harris, 44 00:02:30,090 --> 00:02:33,600 who's the co founder and CEO of mechanism a leading Creative 45 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,900 Advertising Agency Jason has become a beacon of soulful 46 00:02:36,900 --> 00:02:40,110 persuasion showing us that anyone can become a true artist 47 00:02:40,140 --> 00:02:42,660 in their own right we discussed his Wall Street Journal best 48 00:02:42,660 --> 00:02:45,630 selling book, the soulful art of persuasion, please check them 49 00:02:45,630 --> 00:02:48,150 all out. And I also wanted to say thank you so much for your 50 00:02:48,150 --> 00:02:52,650 ratings and reviews. We have now surpassed 10,000 reviews in the 51 00:02:52,650 --> 00:02:56,250 US alone and I am so thankful for all your support. If you 52 00:02:56,250 --> 00:02:59,190 love today's episodes, we would so appreciate you giving it a 53 00:02:59,190 --> 00:03:01,680 five star review and sharing it with your friends and families. 54 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,740 I know we and our guests love to see comments from our listeners. 55 00:03:04,770 --> 00:03:07,620 Today we delve into a pressing issue that affects students 56 00:03:07,620 --> 00:03:10,770 everywhere the toxic achievement culture our special guest 57 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,950 Jennifer Henry Wallace, an award winning journalist and social 58 00:03:13,950 --> 00:03:17,640 commentator joins us to discuss her insightful book Never enough 59 00:03:17,700 --> 00:03:21,150 when achievement culture becomes toxic, and what we can do about 60 00:03:21,150 --> 00:03:24,660 it in a world where success is prioritized. Above all else, 61 00:03:24,690 --> 00:03:27,870 students are facing unprecedented pressure to excel. 62 00:03:27,900 --> 00:03:30,420 Unfortunately, the strive for perfection has led to an 63 00:03:30,420 --> 00:03:33,510 alarming rates of anxiety, depression and self harm in some 64 00:03:33,510 --> 00:03:36,690 of America's highest achieving schools, parents, educators and 65 00:03:36,690 --> 00:03:39,270 community leaders find themselves grappling with a 66 00:03:39,270 --> 00:03:42,840 common dilemma. How can we guide our children towards excellence 67 00:03:42,870 --> 00:03:45,510 without crashing their spirits. Through her research and 68 00:03:45,510 --> 00:03:48,360 interviews with leading experts Jennifer sheds light in our 69 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,690 discussion on the deep rooted causes of toxic achievement 70 00:03:51,690 --> 00:03:54,960 culture. She reveals how this pressure to perform is not 71 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,840 solely a matter of parental choice, but is ingrained in our 72 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,050 larger society. Children are increasingly internalizing the 73 00:04:01,050 --> 00:04:04,260 message that their worth is tied solely to their accomplishments 74 00:04:04,290 --> 00:04:07,620 perpetuated by the media and our broader culture drawn from 75 00:04:07,620 --> 00:04:10,260 interviews with researchers, educators, psychologists and a 76 00:04:10,260 --> 00:04:13,620 comprehensive survey of nearly 6000 parents and children 77 00:04:13,620 --> 00:04:16,290 Jennifer uncovers what kids truly need from the adults in 78 00:04:16,290 --> 00:04:20,850 their lives a sense of mattering when parents and educators adopt 79 00:04:20,850 --> 00:04:23,910 the language and values of mattering children develop the 80 00:04:23,910 --> 00:04:27,150 resilience, self confidence and psychological security they need 81 00:04:27,150 --> 00:04:30,180 to thrive. In our discussion. Jennifer discusses the crisis 82 00:04:30,180 --> 00:04:32,880 plaguing today's teens but also a practical framework for 83 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,520 positive change packed with memorable stories. This 84 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,610 discussion urges us to rethink our approach to achievement and 85 00:04:38,610 --> 00:04:41,370 prioritize the well being of our children. And now let's learn 86 00:04:41,370 --> 00:04:44,730 more about our esteemed guest Jennifer Henry Wallace. Thank 87 00:04:44,730 --> 00:04:47,400 you for choosing passion struck and choosing me to be your host 88 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,800 and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. 89 00:04:49,830 --> 00:04:51,780 Now let that journey began. 90 00:04:57,420 --> 00:05:00,780 I am absolutely thrilled and honored to have Jennifer Wallace 91 00:05:00,780 --> 00:05:04,020 on passion struck. Welcome, Jennifer, thank you so much for 92 00:05:04,020 --> 00:05:08,160 having me. And as I did my research, I found that you like 93 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,120 to go by Jenny. So that's what I'm going to refer to you as for 94 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,470 the rest of the interview. Perfect. Jenny, I'd like to 95 00:05:16,470 --> 00:05:19,230 start these interviews out by giving the audience an 96 00:05:19,230 --> 00:05:22,860 opportunity to get to know you a little bit. And I understand 97 00:05:22,890 --> 00:05:25,620 that after graduating from Harvard, you worked for 60 98 00:05:25,620 --> 00:05:30,360 minutes as an associate producer for eight years. Can you share 99 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,690 any special memories from your time working with the likes of 100 00:05:33,690 --> 00:05:39,060 Mike Wallace? Lesley Stahl, Andy Rooney at Bradley? Dickey Mabry, 101 00:05:39,090 --> 00:05:42,510 Brian Gumbel, I can't believe the people that you got to meet. 102 00:05:43,110 --> 00:05:46,080 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: It was amazing Steve craft at Bradley, 103 00:05:46,140 --> 00:05:49,920 my gosh, it was a couple of decades ago now. Plus, it was 104 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:54,960 extraordinary to be surrounded by such challenge. And I don't 105 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,900 know if you know this, but 60 minutes, at least back then 106 00:05:58,170 --> 00:06:02,520 operated very much like many production companies. So I 107 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,930 worked exclusively with Morley Safer, I would find stories I 108 00:06:06,930 --> 00:06:11,070 would go on the ground and pre interview people helped to put 109 00:06:11,070 --> 00:06:15,240 together a wish list of who we'd want on to talk about the story 110 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:20,160 that we were going to shoot with him draft some questions do then 111 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,910 the producer and I would work out scripts, just giving more or 112 00:06:23,910 --> 00:06:27,750 less a kind of outline. Morley in particular, he had a very old 113 00:06:27,750 --> 00:06:31,920 fashioned typewriter. And so he would get our drafted script and 114 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:37,230 he'd within 30 seconds, improve it to a level that would just 115 00:06:37,230 --> 00:06:41,040 had the touch of Morley Safer. I feel like I learned from the 116 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:45,570 very best in the business. And just as a personal aside, Mike 117 00:06:45,570 --> 00:06:49,230 Wallace was also working there at the time, I didn't get a 118 00:06:49,230 --> 00:06:53,940 chance to actually work with him. But he, for several years, 119 00:06:53,940 --> 00:06:58,440 tried to set me up with his grandson. And for several years, 120 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,550 I said that is so kind, but I'm good. I have a boyfriend. And 121 00:07:02,550 --> 00:07:05,280 then I broke up with my boyfriend. And he asked me to 122 00:07:05,280 --> 00:07:08,610 just go on one date. And so I thought, Alright, I'll just go 123 00:07:08,610 --> 00:07:13,050 on one date, and then he won't he'll stop asking. And that was 124 00:07:13,050 --> 00:07:17,340 23 years ago. So worked out. 125 00:07:18,150 --> 00:07:21,060 John Miles: I wondered, but I wasn't going to ask if there was 126 00:07:21,270 --> 00:07:23,010 a connection there. What a story. 127 00:07:23,490 --> 00:07:26,430 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: It was a good story. As Mike said, he 128 00:07:26,430 --> 00:07:28,980 just does another little aside, Mike said that he would 129 00:07:29,250 --> 00:07:35,280 chaperone the date. And then Arafat called and said he would 130 00:07:35,310 --> 00:07:39,300 allow Mike to interview him. And so I had to go and fly to the 131 00:07:39,300 --> 00:07:43,080 Middle East and Peter and I had our first date, without Mike 132 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,330 Wallace chaperoning worked out. 133 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,690 John Miles: Well, speaking of the Middle East, and I just 134 00:07:48,690 --> 00:07:52,230 thought of this a couple years ago, I got to meet Laura Logan. 135 00:07:52,380 --> 00:07:56,820 And it was interesting, and I know she was on 60 minutes as 136 00:07:56,820 --> 00:08:02,790 well. But she was doing this very hush talk to a number of 137 00:08:02,820 --> 00:08:06,870 veterans like myself. And this was just after we had pulled out 138 00:08:06,870 --> 00:08:12,150 from Afghanistan. And I didn't realize until I heard her speak 139 00:08:12,180 --> 00:08:17,490 with so much passion, just how important to her as a 140 00:08:17,490 --> 00:08:22,110 journalist. The Afghani interpreters were, as they were 141 00:08:22,110 --> 00:08:25,500 two soldiers in the field. She talked about on one or two 142 00:08:25,500 --> 00:08:28,950 occasions, they actually saved her life. She was as large an 143 00:08:28,950 --> 00:08:32,970 advocate, as the service members were in getting some of these 144 00:08:33,450 --> 00:08:37,590 Afghani interpreters and loyalists to our cars out of the 145 00:08:37,590 --> 00:08:41,670 country. I don't think we think about the harm that some of 146 00:08:41,670 --> 00:08:44,790 these journalists put themselves in to tell their stories. 147 00:08:45,810 --> 00:08:47,820 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Yeah, and also the harm that the 148 00:08:47,820 --> 00:08:50,970 interpreters do to helping the journalists tell their stories. 149 00:08:51,210 --> 00:08:55,290 It's really It's extraordinary. Talk about purpose and meaning 150 00:08:55,770 --> 00:08:59,910 when you're risking your life for a cause. That is the 151 00:08:59,910 --> 00:09:02,130 deepest, I think sense of purpose. 152 00:09:04,230 --> 00:09:06,270 John Miles: Well, I want to ask you just one more question about 153 00:09:06,270 --> 00:09:09,420 your time at 60 minutes. I understand that you were part of 154 00:09:09,420 --> 00:09:13,320 the team that won the Robert F. Kennedy journalism award for a 155 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,080 story that you did on homeless children. Can you talk about 156 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:16,800 that a little bit? 157 00:09:17,190 --> 00:09:20,520 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Yeah, that story has really stuck with 158 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,210 me. We were covering a school that is now no longer in 159 00:09:24,210 --> 00:09:28,770 existence called the Pappas school in Arizona, and it was 160 00:09:28,770 --> 00:09:32,760 the first school that was set up exclusively for children who 161 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,610 were homeless. The Coalition for the Homeless, the National 162 00:09:35,610 --> 00:09:39,060 Coalition for the Homeless, based in Washington DC are 163 00:09:39,060 --> 00:09:43,710 advocates for the homeless. And they, understandably were quite 164 00:09:43,710 --> 00:09:49,020 concerned with separating out homeless students from the rest 165 00:09:49,020 --> 00:09:53,070 of the population. Was it stigmatizing were the standards 166 00:09:53,070 --> 00:09:58,410 is high. This was in their eyes, the wrong approach. And so we 167 00:09:58,410 --> 00:10:03,000 went on the ground and We interviewed families. And I just 168 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:07,440 remember my first day there. I met a family. I have never 169 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:13,590 really talked about this. I met a family of five. The mother was 170 00:10:13,620 --> 00:10:18,360 a single mother on and off with her husband. And she was living 171 00:10:18,390 --> 00:10:25,860 in a motel. And it was infested with mice and with bugs. And the 172 00:10:25,860 --> 00:10:29,850 water came out Brown, she had no place to refrigerate things for 173 00:10:29,850 --> 00:10:35,970 the kids. And it was really just musty and horrible. I was 174 00:10:35,970 --> 00:10:40,290 talking with her daughter, who was about 10 years old at the 175 00:10:40,290 --> 00:10:43,710 time, and she later went on and was interviewed for the piece. 176 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,400 And I asked her about the school she was attending the Pappas 177 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:52,170 school. And Morley asked her what is it? That is her greatest 178 00:10:52,170 --> 00:10:57,330 wish, and she said, to have a place to lay my head, that is 179 00:10:57,330 --> 00:11:01,470 safe. That is my greatest wish, and the family had been going 180 00:11:01,470 --> 00:11:06,360 from motel to living in a car. And that stuck with me. The 181 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:10,410 homeless is something that I've been passionate about from my 182 00:11:10,410 --> 00:11:15,510 childhood I, when I was an undergraduate, I worked at the 183 00:11:15,540 --> 00:11:18,960 only student run homeless shelter in the country, which 184 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:23,010 was up at Harvard and Harvard Square. What I learned in 185 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:28,080 working with the homeless people that I met, are lessons that I 186 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:32,040 mean, Trump anything I learned in college, and I'm currently on 187 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:34,320 the board of the Coalition for the Homeless here in New York, 188 00:11:34,350 --> 00:11:39,240 and I can't think of a better use of my time than helping our 189 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:40,890 most vulnerable neighbors. 190 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,440 John Miles: I'm so glad you brought that up. I, as part of a 191 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:51,240 church program, spent a number of years where when it got cold 192 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,000 down here in Tampa, Florida, which doesn't happen that often. 193 00:11:54,330 --> 00:11:57,270 But when it did, I would volunteer at the homeless 194 00:11:57,300 --> 00:12:03,690 shelters. And what really struck me from talking to so many of 195 00:12:03,690 --> 00:12:07,440 the people, many of which were veterans, but there were doctors 196 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,700 and lawyers and people from all walks of life. And I remember 197 00:12:11,700 --> 00:12:14,730 talking to this prominent cardiologist who was now 198 00:12:14,730 --> 00:12:19,770 homeless, and he had a mental breakdown over the death of a 199 00:12:19,770 --> 00:12:23,550 patient, he thought he could save and ended up turning to 200 00:12:23,550 --> 00:12:26,940 drugs. And it led to one thing after another, he lost his 201 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:32,580 family, he lost his medical license, he lost everything. And 202 00:12:33,210 --> 00:12:39,000 he was just telling me about how close any of us are to being in 203 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,870 the same position. But then how difficult it is once you find 204 00:12:42,870 --> 00:12:46,680 yourself there to climb out of it. Because there are not very 205 00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:49,800 many avenues to it. I think it's similar to coming out of the 206 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,580 prison system, I would guess, that they face so what a worthy 207 00:12:53,610 --> 00:12:56,070 cause you're involved in. So thank you for sharing that. 208 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,440 Today we're going to be talking speaking of children, a lot 209 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:06,750 about the topic of children and teenagers. And you wrote this 210 00:13:06,750 --> 00:13:09,840 incredible new book, which releases this week called Never 211 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,140 enough when achievement culture becomes toxic, and what we can 212 00:13:13,140 --> 00:13:18,210 do about it. And I wanted to ask you, what inspired you to delve 213 00:13:18,210 --> 00:13:21,030 into the topic of toxic achievement culture and write 214 00:13:21,030 --> 00:13:21,570 this book. 215 00:13:22,890 --> 00:13:25,440 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: So in academic circles, when a 216 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,730 researcher is studying a topic that is close to their own 217 00:13:29,730 --> 00:13:33,510 hearts, they nickname it me search. I will say writing this 218 00:13:33,510 --> 00:13:37,710 book was very much a me search project. I'm a journalist, I 219 00:13:37,710 --> 00:13:41,130 grew up in high achieving communities went to high 220 00:13:41,130 --> 00:13:46,500 achieving schools. I have three teenagers and I was noticing how 221 00:13:46,530 --> 00:13:51,390 different my child's childhoods were compared to my own. I was 222 00:13:51,390 --> 00:13:56,070 confused by it. And I remember standing on the sidelines of my 223 00:13:56,100 --> 00:14:01,380 eight year olds travel soccer team in the sleeting rain and 224 00:14:01,380 --> 00:14:05,850 looking around and thinking, how did we get here? I'd traveled an 225 00:14:05,850 --> 00:14:09,150 hour and a half to take them to a game. How did we get here? Why 226 00:14:09,150 --> 00:14:13,230 are we even doing this? Why are we all standing on the sidelines 227 00:14:13,230 --> 00:14:16,920 of eight year olds devoting our days to travel soccer what has 228 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,710 happened over the last several years. So those things were just 229 00:14:19,710 --> 00:14:24,210 percolating in my mind. And then in 2019, I wrote an article for 230 00:14:24,210 --> 00:14:29,700 The Washington Post about now students in what researchers 231 00:14:29,700 --> 00:14:33,360 call high achieving schools. Those are public and private 232 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,510 schools around the country where most of the students go on to 233 00:14:36,510 --> 00:14:39,300 four year colleges where the standardized test scores are 234 00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:43,080 high where AP classes are offered. Students attending 235 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,610 these competitive schools are now officially an at risk group. 236 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:52,740 After kids and poverty hits with incarcerated parents, recent 237 00:14:52,740 --> 00:14:56,820 immigrants, children living in foster care, it's now these 238 00:14:56,820 --> 00:15:01,620 groups and they are at risk for Clinical rates of anxiety, 239 00:15:01,860 --> 00:15:05,910 depression, substance abuse disorder, anywhere from two to 240 00:15:05,910 --> 00:15:10,140 six time, national averages. My kids are attending these 241 00:15:10,170 --> 00:15:12,930 competitive, high achieving schools and I wanted to know 242 00:15:12,930 --> 00:15:17,430 what I could do in my own home to buffer against it to protect 243 00:15:17,430 --> 00:15:17,760 them. 244 00:15:19,470 --> 00:15:21,300 John Miles: I was going to ask you about that article. So I'm 245 00:15:21,300 --> 00:15:24,810 glad you shared it. I'm interested to know what impact 246 00:15:24,810 --> 00:15:28,050 did it receive? And did the response surprise you? 247 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:30,420 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Oh, my gosh, the response really 248 00:15:30,420 --> 00:15:35,190 surprised me. It went viral heads of schools shared it with 249 00:15:35,220 --> 00:15:38,610 parents in their communities. Other parents talked about how 250 00:15:38,610 --> 00:15:40,980 it was posted on the school bulletin board. As soon as you 251 00:15:40,980 --> 00:15:46,620 walk in, I received countless emails to my personal website, 252 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,310 asking me for more information. What really started me on this 253 00:15:50,310 --> 00:15:56,790 journey to unpack why achievement has become toxic in 254 00:15:56,790 --> 00:16:00,720 so many children's lives and what we could do about it. So it 255 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,290 was a big impact. I will tell you speaking of surprises, and 256 00:16:04,290 --> 00:16:08,970 impact. Before I wrote the book, I wanted to make sure that the 257 00:16:08,970 --> 00:16:12,870 achievement pressure that I was reading about and hearing about 258 00:16:12,870 --> 00:16:16,200 and seeing in my own community, I wanted to make sure it wasn't 259 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,370 just a few select communities around the country or confined 260 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,150 to the coasts. With the help of a researcher at the Harvard 261 00:16:24,150 --> 00:16:26,970 Graduate School of Education. I conducted a first of its kind 262 00:16:26,970 --> 00:16:30,330 parenting survey. And I wanted to get to the roots of what 263 00:16:30,330 --> 00:16:33,030 parents were feeling. And I wanted to know, was this 264 00:16:33,030 --> 00:16:35,910 something that was being felt everywhere? So the researcher 265 00:16:35,910 --> 00:16:39,150 said to me, okay, we need to get a sample size of 1000. I said, 266 00:16:39,150 --> 00:16:42,390 Okay, all right. I think that's doable. And then within a few 267 00:16:42,390 --> 00:16:46,050 days, over 6500 parents had filled out the parenting survey, 268 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:50,760 it had shown up on parenting websites. What I found was that 269 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,000 this was not confined to the coasts at the end of the survey, 270 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,900 I asked parents, if they would be willing to be interviewed for 271 00:16:57,900 --> 00:17:01,410 my book, either anonymously or with their names attached to 272 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,350 email me, and I left my email at the end of the survey and 273 00:17:04,350 --> 00:17:08,340 hundreds of parents reached out. That set me on a journey, I 274 00:17:08,340 --> 00:17:12,690 traveled to Maine, I traveled to Washington State to Cleveland, 275 00:17:12,690 --> 00:17:18,120 Ohio, to Jackson, Wyoming, to Connecticut to Pennsylvania to 276 00:17:18,120 --> 00:17:22,860 Florida, I went all over the country, to interview families. 277 00:17:22,860 --> 00:17:26,460 I spoke with families who had lost loved ones to suicide, 278 00:17:26,460 --> 00:17:29,220 whose kids had dropped out of school because of the intense 279 00:17:29,220 --> 00:17:33,120 pressures. And then I started shifting my focus and looking 280 00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:37,320 for who were the kids who were thriving, despite the pressures 281 00:17:37,350 --> 00:17:40,920 that these parents had identified in the survey, who 282 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,040 was thriving, what did these kids have in common? What was 283 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,220 home life? Like? What was school like? What were their pure 284 00:17:47,220 --> 00:17:50,100 relationships? Like? What did they see as their place in the 285 00:17:50,100 --> 00:17:52,710 larger community, I wanted to know if there were common 286 00:17:52,710 --> 00:17:57,660 threads, I found about 15 things that these healthy achievers had 287 00:17:57,660 --> 00:18:02,160 in common as I was looking for a framework to present my findings 288 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:07,980 to parents, I came across an idea, a psychological construct 289 00:18:08,250 --> 00:18:11,940 called mattering and mattering. It's been around since the 290 00:18:11,940 --> 00:18:15,960 1980s. It was first conceptualized by Maurice 291 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,490 Rosenberg who conceptualized self esteem. And what he found 292 00:18:20,490 --> 00:18:25,470 was that teenagers who enjoyed a healthy level of self esteem, 293 00:18:25,890 --> 00:18:30,060 felt like they mattered to their parents that they were important 294 00:18:30,090 --> 00:18:34,140 and significant. Over the last several decades, the research on 295 00:18:34,140 --> 00:18:37,980 mattering has started to really pick up. And a definition that 296 00:18:37,980 --> 00:18:41,460 really resonates with me, what I saw in the healthy students that 297 00:18:41,460 --> 00:18:46,080 I interviewed for this book, is that these students felt valued 298 00:18:46,470 --> 00:18:51,090 for who they were at their core, by their family, by their 299 00:18:51,090 --> 00:18:57,270 schools, by their communities. And they were depended on to add 300 00:18:57,270 --> 00:19:02,400 meaningful value back to their families, to their schools, and 301 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,330 to their larger communities that developed this high level of 302 00:19:06,330 --> 00:19:10,380 mattering, that served as a protective shield against the 303 00:19:10,380 --> 00:19:13,650 stress and anxiety in their environments. It didn't mean 304 00:19:13,650 --> 00:19:16,230 that these kids didn't have failures, it didn't mean that 305 00:19:16,230 --> 00:19:19,350 they weren't anxious and depressed sometimes, but 306 00:19:19,350 --> 00:19:23,850 mattering served as like a buoy that would help pick them up 307 00:19:24,180 --> 00:19:27,450 when they stumbled. That was a long answer to your question. 308 00:19:28,590 --> 00:19:31,710 John Miles: Kenny, I typically prepare that 30 questions for 309 00:19:31,710 --> 00:19:33,960 these interviews, because I never know what direction 310 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,500 they're gonna go. And sometimes they go just like I want them to 311 00:19:37,500 --> 00:19:42,930 and then sometimes I get answers like that. And I'm very glad I 312 00:19:42,930 --> 00:19:46,620 prepare more questions, because you covered about three or four 313 00:19:46,620 --> 00:19:49,890 that I was going to ask you intend to answer, but I'm glad 314 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,120 that you brought up mattering because I recently did an 315 00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:58,170 interview with Seth Godin. And he has written a new book if you 316 00:19:58,170 --> 00:20:00,990 haven't read it called the song of signal I can see it's an 317 00:20:00,990 --> 00:20:05,130 incredible book very short. And to the point, he and I had an 318 00:20:05,130 --> 00:20:09,750 enlightening conversation about how so much of today's work 319 00:20:09,750 --> 00:20:13,740 environment dismisses the importance of people feeling 320 00:20:13,980 --> 00:20:18,180 that what they do matters. It's another thing. When I think 321 00:20:18,180 --> 00:20:22,380 about it, as you brought up about its impact on children 322 00:20:22,410 --> 00:20:26,430 that got me thinking, if so many people today who are raising 323 00:20:26,430 --> 00:20:31,380 kids feel like they lack significance in what they're 324 00:20:31,380 --> 00:20:36,060 doing. Because I think that this is a huge issue right now, to 325 00:20:36,060 --> 00:20:41,640 why 85% of people feel disengaged with their jobs. Do 326 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:46,050 you think there's any tied to that? And this idea of lack of 327 00:20:46,050 --> 00:20:49,680 significance for adults, and then it's getting passed on to 328 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:54,480 our children, and they're feeling this lack of mattering 329 00:20:54,510 --> 00:20:58,140 as well, because of the pressure, and maybe the 330 00:20:58,140 --> 00:21:00,030 influence that their parents are putting on them? 331 00:21:00,780 --> 00:21:03,180 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Oh, yes, I will say the most 332 00:21:03,180 --> 00:21:09,420 surprising thing I found in the research was when you have a 333 00:21:09,420 --> 00:21:14,340 child in distress, the number one intervention, according to 334 00:21:14,340 --> 00:21:18,240 decades of resilience research is to make sure the primary 335 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,350 caregivers who are most often the parents, that their well 336 00:21:22,350 --> 00:21:27,810 being their mental health, their support system, is intact, 337 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:32,220 because a child's resilience rests fundamentally on a 338 00:21:32,220 --> 00:21:36,570 parent's resilience. And a parent's resilience rests 339 00:21:36,570 --> 00:21:41,130 fundamentally on the depth and nurturing of their 340 00:21:41,130 --> 00:21:46,260 relationships. So when you have parents all day long, going to 341 00:21:46,260 --> 00:21:50,820 the office where eight 910 hours a day, they are made to feel 342 00:21:50,820 --> 00:21:54,000 that they don't matter. They don't have a voice. They could 343 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,320 be the next layoff. They're not recognized for the efforts 344 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:04,290 they're putting in. How could they then show up every day 345 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:10,020 after work to their children, as first responders to their kids 346 00:22:10,020 --> 00:22:13,800 distress? Where do they have that resilience? Where do they 347 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,730 have that strength when it's been knocked out of them? Eight 348 00:22:17,730 --> 00:22:24,390 910 hours a day? I think there's absolutely a connection between 349 00:22:24,750 --> 00:22:33,330 not mattering at work. And both not having the resilience to be 350 00:22:33,330 --> 00:22:37,170 there in the way we need to be for our children in distress. 351 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,460 But also that if we're not modeling our own mattering, 352 00:22:42,060 --> 00:22:46,230 where are our children learning it, children learn their sense 353 00:22:46,230 --> 00:22:49,890 of mattering first at home, that's the first place where 354 00:22:49,890 --> 00:22:53,760 they learn whether they are valued and significant, and 355 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:58,560 whether their self worth is not contingent on their performance. 356 00:22:58,770 --> 00:23:01,800 They're growing up in environments and we're all 357 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:06,690 living in environments where our worth to our companies is 100% 358 00:23:06,690 --> 00:23:11,070 contingent on our performance. So as a society, we don't do a 359 00:23:11,070 --> 00:23:15,390 good job on delivering on mattering. The researchers who 360 00:23:15,390 --> 00:23:20,820 study it, say that after the need for food and shelter, it is 361 00:23:20,820 --> 00:23:26,070 the need to matter that drives all of human behavior, for 362 00:23:26,070 --> 00:23:30,330 better and for worse, for better when we feel like we matter. We 363 00:23:30,330 --> 00:23:35,670 show up to the world in positive ways we see abundance, we see 364 00:23:36,090 --> 00:23:41,340 cooperation instead of hyper competition. When we don't feel 365 00:23:41,340 --> 00:23:44,910 like we matter when we have low levels of mattering. It can 366 00:23:44,910 --> 00:23:49,140 cause us to act out in destructive ways. Oh, I don't 367 00:23:49,140 --> 00:23:52,800 matter to you will I'll show you I matter a school shooter is the 368 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,070 most tragic example. A long answer to your question. But 369 00:23:56,070 --> 00:24:00,330 yes, the adults in children's lives, teachers, parents, 370 00:24:00,330 --> 00:24:04,560 coaches, their mattering. The researchers who study mattering 371 00:24:04,590 --> 00:24:09,090 are saying that the levels of mattering are the lowest ever in 372 00:24:09,090 --> 00:24:12,210 the adult populations that they are surveying. 373 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,180 John Miles: But one of the most fundamental is I to have a book 374 00:24:18,180 --> 00:24:21,930 coming out in February, I devoted the introduction of it 375 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,710 on this whole topic, because I think so many people today, 376 00:24:26,130 --> 00:24:33,000 myself included, wear a mask of pretense, because we are trying 377 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:38,100 to live up to societal norms of what we should be, instead of 378 00:24:38,130 --> 00:24:42,000 living the authentic life that we're supposed to be living and 379 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,890 I think that this is just a huge issue that is not getting 380 00:24:46,890 --> 00:24:51,060 reported enough. I'd like you agree that it then gets passed 381 00:24:51,060 --> 00:24:54,630 down to the kids who will then pass it down to someone else 382 00:24:54,630 --> 00:24:58,350 unless we put a stop to it, which is one of the things I'm 383 00:24:58,350 --> 00:25:03,210 trying to do in my book. But I have another concept that I have 384 00:25:03,210 --> 00:25:06,330 brought up. I don't talk about it that frequently, what you 385 00:25:06,330 --> 00:25:09,420 just said about people who feel like they don't matter or don't 386 00:25:09,420 --> 00:25:13,530 have significance. And they end up doing things that compromise 387 00:25:13,530 --> 00:25:17,460 their goals, I think we end up becoming our own visionary 388 00:25:17,460 --> 00:25:22,590 arsonist, we end up because of a lack of the things that we feel 389 00:25:23,070 --> 00:25:28,500 arson, the very visions and goals and aspirations that we 390 00:25:28,500 --> 00:25:33,210 long for because of this feeling that I throw that out and see 391 00:25:33,210 --> 00:25:34,890 what reaction you might have to it. 392 00:25:35,850 --> 00:25:38,040 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: I would agree with you, I went in 393 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,060 search of a solution to that never enough feeling that you're 394 00:25:42,060 --> 00:25:45,450 describing. I describe the never enough feeling of our young 395 00:25:45,450 --> 00:25:48,690 students. But I also talk about the never enough feeling of the 396 00:25:48,690 --> 00:25:52,470 adults in their lives. What the research points to as an 397 00:25:52,470 --> 00:25:56,580 intervention to solve this never enough, I'm not good enough. My 398 00:25:56,580 --> 00:26:00,390 worth is contingent. It sounds like a simple solution, because 399 00:26:00,390 --> 00:26:04,590 it is, but it's actually quite profound and deep. So just as 400 00:26:04,590 --> 00:26:09,300 our children need to be loved unconditionally, by us to be 401 00:26:09,300 --> 00:26:13,560 seen and known for the unique people, they are at their core 402 00:26:13,620 --> 00:26:17,190 away from their achievements. The adults in their lives also 403 00:26:17,190 --> 00:26:22,200 need to be surrounded by people, adults in their lives, who see 404 00:26:22,500 --> 00:26:27,000 who they are at their core, who love them unconditionally, who 405 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,050 remind them of their worth, when they're feeling down. As I was 406 00:26:31,050 --> 00:26:34,920 traveling the country meeting parents in these communities, it 407 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:39,630 wasn't that the parents didn't have friends, they pretty much 408 00:26:39,660 --> 00:26:45,150 all had friends, what they didn't have was the time and the 409 00:26:45,150 --> 00:26:50,190 bandwidth, to invest in these kinds of friendships, these 410 00:26:50,190 --> 00:26:53,910 relationships, so that they could be a deep source of 411 00:26:53,910 --> 00:26:57,180 support a relationship, someone they could come to when they're 412 00:26:57,180 --> 00:27:01,350 in distress, when they're questioning their worth. We just 413 00:27:01,350 --> 00:27:07,110 don't have these solid deep relationships anymore. And that 414 00:27:07,140 --> 00:27:10,740 is the epidemic of loneliness that our Surgeon General is 415 00:27:10,740 --> 00:27:14,430 talking about. We have prioritized as you said, what 416 00:27:14,430 --> 00:27:18,090 researchers would call materialistic goals, career 417 00:27:18,090 --> 00:27:24,870 success, material success, over intrinsic goals of caring 418 00:27:24,870 --> 00:27:29,130 relationships of being a good neighbor, with those intrinsic 419 00:27:29,130 --> 00:27:34,560 goals give us is social proof that we matter. We could get the 420 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,680 big promotion and we could get the fancy car and we could feel 421 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,040 like we matter. But deep down we know it's just these things that 422 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,090 are the facade of mattering. When you invest in your 423 00:27:45,090 --> 00:27:48,450 friendships when you are vulnerable. When you learn how 424 00:27:48,450 --> 00:27:52,620 to depend on people and and allow people to depend on you, 425 00:27:53,460 --> 00:27:59,070 you get a sense of value and worth that really gives proof to 426 00:27:59,070 --> 00:28:02,430 your value in a deep, meaningful, profound way. 427 00:28:04,050 --> 00:28:06,270 John Miles: Thank you so much for sharing that that was really 428 00:28:06,270 --> 00:28:10,440 profound. I just wanted to give the audience two great episodes 429 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,100 that they could refer to. For more on this topic. One was with 430 00:28:14,100 --> 00:28:18,690 Dr. Julianne Holt Wanstead, who's a professor at Brigham 431 00:28:18,690 --> 00:28:23,370 Young, and the foremost expert on loneliness and the epidemic 432 00:28:23,370 --> 00:28:27,600 in the world. And we had a great conversation about its causes, 433 00:28:27,630 --> 00:28:31,770 and what she thinks are some of the solutions to addressing it 434 00:28:31,770 --> 00:28:34,890 if that's something that our listeners feeling. I also did a 435 00:28:34,890 --> 00:28:38,190 great episode with Bob waldinger, who leads the Harvard 436 00:28:38,190 --> 00:28:43,080 adult study of advanced aging, which found that relationships 437 00:28:43,410 --> 00:28:47,970 amongst everything else are the key to living a happy life. And 438 00:28:47,970 --> 00:28:50,610 that is a really good episode that really goes into this 439 00:28:50,610 --> 00:28:53,700 importance of relationships regardless of age. I just wanted 440 00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:58,740 to bring those two up. And speaking of interviews, last 441 00:28:58,740 --> 00:29:02,070 year, I was fortunate enough to interview my friend Susan Cain, 442 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,310 and I talked to her about her book bittersweet, but during our 443 00:29:05,310 --> 00:29:07,740 discussion, she talked about visiting her alma mater, 444 00:29:07,740 --> 00:29:11,670 Princeton, and discovering that so many of the students were 445 00:29:11,670 --> 00:29:16,890 falling into what she introduced to me was the effortless 446 00:29:16,890 --> 00:29:20,520 perfection trap. And I wanted to ask you, how does this 447 00:29:20,550 --> 00:29:25,290 effortless perfection relate to toxic achievement? Are they the 448 00:29:25,290 --> 00:29:25,980 same thing? 449 00:29:27,900 --> 00:29:29,910 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: They're definitely related. Effortless 450 00:29:29,910 --> 00:29:34,260 perfection. The way I understand it, is the idea that you have to 451 00:29:34,260 --> 00:29:38,010 have a facade schools call it the Penn face University of 452 00:29:38,010 --> 00:29:40,260 Pennsylvania has the Penn phase where you don't show your 453 00:29:40,260 --> 00:29:44,160 stress. Stanford has the the Stanford duck move or something 454 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,950 like that, where you can envision a duck furiously 455 00:29:46,950 --> 00:29:50,520 paddling under the water, but on the surface there gliding, that 456 00:29:50,550 --> 00:29:56,490 effortless perfection that facade creates a barrier of 457 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:02,190 really being truly known. So the roots of of perfectionism, are 458 00:30:02,220 --> 00:30:05,550 really take place in childhood, the researchers that I spoke to 459 00:30:05,550 --> 00:30:08,400 about this, and I spoke with the leading researchers on 460 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,810 perfectionism. And actually one of them Gordon flat, who created 461 00:30:12,810 --> 00:30:16,380 the perfectionism scale that researchers use, has actually 462 00:30:16,380 --> 00:30:19,590 turned his attention to mattering because he sees it as 463 00:30:19,590 --> 00:30:24,540 a solution to perfectionism. And in his view, and I have to agree 464 00:30:24,540 --> 00:30:28,740 with him. There's no such thing as a healthy perfectionist, that 465 00:30:28,740 --> 00:30:33,090 perfectionism is rooted in childhood, often the belief by a 466 00:30:33,090 --> 00:30:37,560 child that they need to be perfect in order to be worthy of 467 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,580 a parent's love and support. Perfectionism then is really a 468 00:30:41,580 --> 00:30:45,090 life saving connection to a parent, right? If you feel as 469 00:30:45,090 --> 00:30:47,910 though you have to be perfect to be loved. If you're not perfect, 470 00:30:47,910 --> 00:30:51,300 you'll be abandoned, you will choose perfection every time. 471 00:30:51,660 --> 00:30:56,010 But what that does is over time, it really deteriorates the 472 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,310 person's self esteem, they can adopt a false sense of self, 473 00:30:59,580 --> 00:31:03,510 where they basically go through life, pleasing other people and 474 00:31:03,510 --> 00:31:06,690 and presenting themselves in a way that others they think 475 00:31:06,690 --> 00:31:12,270 others want them to be. What the perfectionist lacks, is the 476 00:31:12,270 --> 00:31:16,590 vulnerability to be really known. That is such a painful 477 00:31:16,890 --> 00:31:20,850 state of affairs, I will say because I asked researchers, how 478 00:31:20,850 --> 00:31:24,150 can I prevent this perfectionism from taking root in my own 479 00:31:24,150 --> 00:31:28,800 families in my own children and Rick wise board at Harvard's 480 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:34,080 making Karen common said to me, when I was asking, Does praise 481 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,290 play into perfectionism your praise your kids too much do 482 00:31:37,290 --> 00:31:40,740 they feel like they always have to be perfect. He said to me, 483 00:31:41,010 --> 00:31:46,860 the self become stronger, less by being praised them by being 484 00:31:46,860 --> 00:31:51,240 known. If we want to try to help prevent perfectionism from 485 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,950 taking root in our kids. One effective way we can do that is 486 00:31:55,950 --> 00:32:00,720 by getting to know our kids intimately. Getting a PhD in 487 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:05,040 what makes them uniquely ticked that is separate from any of 488 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,400 their achievements. Like, for my son, it's his sense of humor, 489 00:32:08,610 --> 00:32:12,600 and really taking note of that and noticing our kids at every 490 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:12,990 term. 491 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,210 John Miles: As a parent of 19, and 25 year old kids, I can 492 00:32:18,780 --> 00:32:21,720 completely relate to what you're saying about going back and 493 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,440 getting a PhD into better understanding their minds, and 494 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,740 their behaviors and how to influence it and better ways. It 495 00:32:28,740 --> 00:32:32,190 became very apparent to me as early as my kids were in middle 496 00:32:32,190 --> 00:32:37,080 school of the Mental Health Crisis amongst youngsters today. 497 00:32:37,350 --> 00:32:39,720 In fact, I was interviewing Harvard psychiatrist and 498 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,990 researcher, Dr. Chris Palmer, who came out with a great book 499 00:32:42,990 --> 00:32:46,140 last year called brain energy. And he has been studying this 500 00:32:46,140 --> 00:32:49,200 too. In our interview, he talked about the steady rise in all 501 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,290 mental illness, and that it is especially acute in younger 502 00:32:52,290 --> 00:32:57,660 adults. And this rise is often attributed to COVID, or things 503 00:32:57,660 --> 00:33:00,390 like social media use. But I only think that there are a 504 00:33:00,390 --> 00:33:03,030 small part of the overall problem. And it's something that 505 00:33:03,030 --> 00:33:08,430 you argue, as well that you think it has more to do with 506 00:33:09,060 --> 00:33:11,700 achievement pressure, I was hoping you could share your 507 00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:16,170 insights on how this push that children feel to succeed is 508 00:33:16,170 --> 00:33:18,960 directly contributing towards childhood suffering. 509 00:33:19,740 --> 00:33:22,650 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: When you look at what is the biggest 510 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:27,120 task in adolescence, it is developing a strong sense of 511 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:32,040 self. And knowing who you are and building your identity. When 512 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,580 you are getting messages in your environment, in your society, on 513 00:33:35,580 --> 00:33:40,590 social media in the classroom at home. That achievement comes 514 00:33:40,590 --> 00:33:46,890 first. That's what matters. Most kids lose the time and the 515 00:33:46,890 --> 00:33:49,890 energy that should be spent figuring out who they are what 516 00:33:49,890 --> 00:33:53,160 makes them uniquely tick. And instead they focus on these 517 00:33:53,190 --> 00:33:56,910 external hoops to jump and the path that's laid out before 518 00:33:56,910 --> 00:34:00,780 them. And you talked about the suffering of adolescents and 519 00:34:00,780 --> 00:34:06,270 young adults and I interviewed and surveyed 518 to 30 year 520 00:34:06,270 --> 00:34:10,950 olds, and I asked them some open ended questions and they talked 521 00:34:10,950 --> 00:34:15,000 about the meaninglessness of their lives. One in particular 522 00:34:15,030 --> 00:34:18,600 said he devoted his entire childhood to getting into an Ivy 523 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,080 League school, he got into the Ivy League school and dropped 524 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,910 out because he was completely burnt out what we do when we 525 00:34:26,910 --> 00:34:33,150 focus so much on achievement, we prevent our kids from developing 526 00:34:33,150 --> 00:34:37,920 their true authentic selves. That is the greatest task for 527 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:43,020 adolescents that is what enables a child to go into the world and 528 00:34:43,020 --> 00:34:46,050 understand who they uniquely are, what are their strengths, 529 00:34:46,050 --> 00:34:49,350 what do they bring to the world? How can they contribute in a 530 00:34:49,350 --> 00:34:53,250 meaningful way, so that they can see themselves as part of a 531 00:34:53,250 --> 00:34:53,760 whole? 532 00:34:55,139 --> 00:34:57,449 John Miles: It's interesting earlier this week interviewed 533 00:34:57,479 --> 00:35:01,739 Dr. Who tandra Wadhwa who teach is at the Columbia Business 534 00:35:01,739 --> 00:35:06,929 School, when he started teaching at Columbia 20 years ago, he 535 00:35:06,929 --> 00:35:10,049 started to observe that every single thing that they were 536 00:35:10,049 --> 00:35:16,139 teaching these future leaders was how to lead others. But they 537 00:35:16,139 --> 00:35:20,789 were not doing any coursework on how to lead themselves, he ended 538 00:35:20,789 --> 00:35:25,439 up proposing to the dean of a course called personal success, 539 00:35:25,769 --> 00:35:29,069 which has now become one of the most popular courses at the 540 00:35:29,069 --> 00:35:32,759 business school. And he has recently come out with a book 541 00:35:32,759 --> 00:35:37,259 called inner mastery, outer impact. What he was trying to do 542 00:35:37,259 --> 00:35:41,879 here with this book was to show people that if you want to have 543 00:35:41,879 --> 00:35:46,469 that outer impact of influencing the world, that you really have 544 00:35:46,469 --> 00:35:50,999 to know and understand your authentic self in order to do 545 00:35:50,999 --> 00:35:55,229 that. And I think what you're saying, in many ways, is some of 546 00:35:55,229 --> 00:35:58,949 the same things is teaching people to really get grounded, 547 00:35:59,219 --> 00:36:02,549 and to be happy with who they are, instead of trying to live 548 00:36:02,549 --> 00:36:06,899 up to all the hype that surrounds us, and is thrust at 549 00:36:06,899 --> 00:36:09,059 us at what seems to be all angles. 550 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,970 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: I'll give your listeners a really 551 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,140 tangible thing that they can do. Many adults and children don't 552 00:36:16,140 --> 00:36:19,980 know what their natural strengths are, who their deep 553 00:36:19,980 --> 00:36:22,860 authentic self is, how they show up to the world what strengths 554 00:36:22,860 --> 00:36:26,340 they show, there is something called the via character survey, 555 00:36:26,340 --> 00:36:30,480 which was developed by the leading researchers on positive 556 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,390 psychology, Marty Seligman and Christopher Peterson and 557 00:36:33,390 --> 00:36:37,020 Michigan, and also dozens of others, researchers, and it's a 558 00:36:37,020 --> 00:36:42,720 free online quiz that adults can take. There's also a via quiz 559 00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:48,870 first for children. And what it does is it gives you a sense of 560 00:36:48,870 --> 00:36:53,040 what your natural strengths are. And then what you can do with 561 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,200 your kids. I've done this with my kids, our whole family has 562 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,190 taken the survey, when my kids are having an obstacle, we look 563 00:36:59,220 --> 00:37:03,180 at their strengths. And I say which strength could you use to 564 00:37:03,180 --> 00:37:06,660 overcome that obstacle? What can you do? So for example, my 565 00:37:06,660 --> 00:37:10,710 daughter, when we took the quiz, she was in eighth grade. And 566 00:37:10,710 --> 00:37:13,380 there was drama in the lunchroom, she was going through 567 00:37:13,380 --> 00:37:16,950 like a period of lunchroom drama. And I said, look at your 568 00:37:16,950 --> 00:37:20,130 strengths. What could you use to solve this problem? She said, 569 00:37:20,370 --> 00:37:23,040 humor, because she's very sarcastic and funny. She said, I 570 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,760 can make a joke, the next time somebody tries to provoke 571 00:37:26,790 --> 00:37:30,150 somebody at the table, I can make it a joke. And she did she 572 00:37:30,150 --> 00:37:33,030 got through it, I highly recommend you can just Google up 573 00:37:33,030 --> 00:37:36,930 via character survey. It's free, it's 10 to 15 minutes. It's 574 00:37:36,930 --> 00:37:39,630 scientifically validated and will give you a sense of what 575 00:37:39,630 --> 00:37:41,970 your strengths are and what your kids strengths are, you can 576 00:37:41,970 --> 00:37:45,480 reinforce them and help pointed out to them. That's one way to 577 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:46,890 get a PhD and your kids 578 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,270 John Miles: follow on question to that would be how has your 579 00:37:51,270 --> 00:37:54,270 own research influenced your parenting approach to promote 580 00:37:54,270 --> 00:37:57,090 healing? And what I like to call intentional growth? 581 00:37:57,690 --> 00:38:00,480 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Oh my gosh, in so many ways, I feel 582 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,660 very grateful that I had four years of learning from the 583 00:38:03,660 --> 00:38:07,140 leading researchers and psychologists and speaking with 584 00:38:07,140 --> 00:38:11,070 literally hundreds of families and educators around the 585 00:38:11,100 --> 00:38:15,390 country, I've started to already implement things in my own 586 00:38:15,390 --> 00:38:18,810 house. So the first thing, the leading researcher, Sonia 587 00:38:18,810 --> 00:38:21,660 Luthor, who did a lot of this research that I quote in the 588 00:38:21,660 --> 00:38:25,980 book, she's recently passed away, but I asked her, what's 589 00:38:25,980 --> 00:38:28,590 the first thing I should do? I now I'm getting this 590 00:38:28,590 --> 00:38:31,980 information, how do I start implementing it in my home. And 591 00:38:31,980 --> 00:38:36,780 she said, I have two phrases for you to keep in mind. Minimize 592 00:38:36,780 --> 00:38:44,880 criticism, prioritize affection. And so that is just a simple way 593 00:38:44,910 --> 00:38:50,730 of remembering what our job is, as parents, she also said, make 594 00:38:50,730 --> 00:38:55,230 your home a haven from the pressure. We all think it's our 595 00:38:55,230 --> 00:39:00,300 job to raise our kids to reach their potential. But they're 596 00:39:00,300 --> 00:39:02,550 living in a toxic environment where they are getting these 597 00:39:02,550 --> 00:39:07,770 messages, to achieve more, do more, reach higher, and that 598 00:39:07,770 --> 00:39:11,220 home needs to be a place to recover from those pressures. 599 00:39:11,310 --> 00:39:15,600 One other thing I learned from a parent that I interviewed was to 600 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:20,160 make the thinking explicit, meaning that you love your child 601 00:39:20,190 --> 00:39:23,130 unconditionally. You love them for who they are, at their core, 602 00:39:23,670 --> 00:39:28,290 make that explicit. And she showed an experiment with a $20 603 00:39:28,290 --> 00:39:33,000 bill, whenever her children come to her with a failure or they 604 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,870 didn't get on the ATM or they didn't do well on a test or 605 00:39:36,870 --> 00:39:40,110 their friends. Were icing them out. She would reach into her 606 00:39:40,110 --> 00:39:43,230 wallet and she'd grab a $20 bill and she'd say to her child, do 607 00:39:43,230 --> 00:39:45,930 you want this? And the kid would say yes, of course. Then she 608 00:39:45,930 --> 00:39:49,530 would say Okay, hang on. She crumpled up to $20 Bill sheet, 609 00:39:49,530 --> 00:39:53,130 stomp it on the floor, get it all dirty, and then very 610 00:39:53,130 --> 00:39:56,340 dramatically dunking it in a glass of water. And then she 611 00:39:56,340 --> 00:39:59,400 would hold up the $20 bill to her kid and she would say Do you 612 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:03,690 still want it To the soggy, dirty, $20 bill, and the child 613 00:40:03,690 --> 00:40:07,440 would say, yes, of course. And she said, like you're worth, 614 00:40:08,310 --> 00:40:12,330 this $20 Bill is like you're worth, it doesn't matter if you 615 00:40:12,330 --> 00:40:16,740 are dirty, if you are wrinkled, if you are sopping wet, if you 616 00:40:16,770 --> 00:40:19,950 have gotten cut from a team, if you've gotten a bad grade, your 617 00:40:19,950 --> 00:40:24,690 worth is your worth, like this $20 bill, it never changed us. 618 00:40:25,050 --> 00:40:29,190 And to me that was such a profound, and in a way 619 00:40:29,190 --> 00:40:34,500 countercultural way of teaching kids that they are worthy for 620 00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:39,450 who they are not their failures, and not their successes either. 621 00:40:40,950 --> 00:40:43,020 John Miles: I think that's a great story and a great 622 00:40:43,020 --> 00:40:47,130 illustration of a parenting technique that the listeners 623 00:40:47,130 --> 00:40:52,230 could use. I know it's difficult in my case, and I think all kids 624 00:40:52,260 --> 00:40:56,820 are very different. My son, we had to push him more to achieve, 625 00:40:56,820 --> 00:41:00,030 at least at first and then reached that development stage 626 00:41:00,030 --> 00:41:03,750 where he got it. Now he has done extremely well after going 627 00:41:03,750 --> 00:41:06,960 through that tiny period. My daughter, on the other hand, is 628 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:11,820 one who puts the pressure completely on herself. And we 629 00:41:11,970 --> 00:41:16,740 try to back away and tell her, we're not expecting you to do 630 00:41:16,740 --> 00:41:20,010 any of the things that you're doing. And we don't expect you 631 00:41:20,010 --> 00:41:23,880 to put the pressure on. But it's difficult when they continue to 632 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:28,170 do that, even though everything you were trying to do is to take 633 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,610 that feeling away from them. Do you have any advice if a parent 634 00:41:32,610 --> 00:41:34,350 is facing that situation? 635 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:36,840 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: I interviewed a few parents like 636 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,420 that in my book, one of the mothers that I interviewed 637 00:41:39,420 --> 00:41:44,370 talked about taking the kettle off the burner, which she did 638 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,750 was what you're saying she was very explicit about her 639 00:41:48,750 --> 00:41:52,230 expectations for her child. And it was in many ways 640 00:41:52,230 --> 00:41:55,920 countercultural, she said, I don't want you taking all the AP 641 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,490 classes, I want you to be ambitious. Basically, for more, 642 00:41:59,730 --> 00:42:02,460 I want you to be ambitious in your friendships, I want you to 643 00:42:02,460 --> 00:42:06,120 be ambitious about your health. I want you to be ambitious about 644 00:42:06,270 --> 00:42:10,590 your relationships. What this mother was telling me is, as a 645 00:42:10,590 --> 00:42:14,520 parent, we can guide our children. It's hard because your 646 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:19,320 daughter is older parents who have kids living at home, have 647 00:42:19,860 --> 00:42:24,120 more control in a way they can put up those bumpers, they could 648 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,600 say the lights are out. I had another mother I interviewed, 649 00:42:27,780 --> 00:42:32,700 the internet went out at 1130 at night, every night, no matter 650 00:42:32,700 --> 00:42:36,090 what even if her son had a test, they know it. And that internet 651 00:42:36,090 --> 00:42:39,750 went off so that her son could get eight hours of sleep before 652 00:42:39,750 --> 00:42:43,890 school, there are things we can do when our kids are younger to 653 00:42:43,950 --> 00:42:48,420 kind to try to help them build a life that they will not have to 654 00:42:48,420 --> 00:42:52,230 one day try to escape from with drugs and alcohol and 655 00:42:52,230 --> 00:42:55,470 overworking. But it's hard. We live in a culture that sends 656 00:42:55,470 --> 00:42:59,400 those messages to us that we are only worth our next achievement. 657 00:42:59,430 --> 00:43:01,680 That's what I'm trying to do with this book is to help 658 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:07,080 parents go back to the very basics of valuing our kids for 659 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,290 who they are at their core because actually what that will 660 00:43:10,290 --> 00:43:14,820 do is give their kids this healthy fuel that will last 661 00:43:14,820 --> 00:43:17,700 throughout life and help to prevent burnout. 662 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,390 John Miles: I'm glad you brought up the whole sleep aspect 663 00:43:21,390 --> 00:43:23,820 because that's something I did want to cover with you last year 664 00:43:23,820 --> 00:43:26,280 I had an enlightening conversation with Dr. Sara 665 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:31,290 Mednick, who's a prominent research expert on sleep at 666 00:43:31,290 --> 00:43:34,980 University of California Irvine, and she wrote the book, The 667 00:43:34,980 --> 00:43:37,680 Power of the downstate which is about the importance of 668 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:41,790 downtime, and rest and downtime are often overlooked in high 669 00:43:41,790 --> 00:43:46,620 achieving and grind culture environments. I know. For me, it 670 00:43:46,620 --> 00:43:50,970 certainly was when I was in the military, and when I've been in 671 00:43:51,030 --> 00:43:54,900 some of these high pressure jobs, but it's also something 672 00:43:54,900 --> 00:43:58,410 that as you were just explaining our kids feel as well. Why is it 673 00:43:58,410 --> 00:44:01,830 so crucial to teach high achieving kids and those 674 00:44:01,860 --> 00:44:04,500 immersed in this growing culture, how to rest and why 675 00:44:04,500 --> 00:44:07,950 it's important to help them understand why it's so vital to 676 00:44:07,950 --> 00:44:09,600 do so. So 677 00:44:09,630 --> 00:44:11,820 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Lisa demore is a child psychologist 678 00:44:11,820 --> 00:44:15,720 that I interviewed for this book, she said to me, sleep is 679 00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:20,430 the hill she will die on as a parent that sleep in her 680 00:44:20,430 --> 00:44:24,960 research and other research. Sleep is the glue she said that 681 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:29,460 holds humans together without sleep, you're already operating 682 00:44:29,490 --> 00:44:33,030 without the same coping skills you can turn to unhealthy habits 683 00:44:33,030 --> 00:44:38,100 to keep going. Kids need to be given this message and we do as 684 00:44:38,100 --> 00:44:41,910 adults as well in our grind culture, that we are worthy of 685 00:44:41,910 --> 00:44:46,320 rest, that we are worthy of taking the time to do more than 686 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:51,120 just work in our capitalistic structure. It's not just rest to 687 00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:56,220 be more productive. It's rest because we are worthy of rest. 688 00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,340 Because every moment in our lives isn't about achieving 689 00:44:59,340 --> 00:45:03,660 something In our home, sleep is hugely important. And I also 690 00:45:03,660 --> 00:45:07,110 model it, I go to bed very early, and I wake up very early. 691 00:45:07,410 --> 00:45:10,890 What that does in making the parameters around sleep is that 692 00:45:10,890 --> 00:45:14,850 you help your child become more energy efficient. You say to 693 00:45:14,850 --> 00:45:18,180 them, you cannot stay up until 3am, that's not going to happen 694 00:45:18,180 --> 00:45:21,810 in our house, the internet is going to go off. So you have to 695 00:45:21,810 --> 00:45:24,660 get your work done, you have to be more efficient in getting 696 00:45:24,660 --> 00:45:28,140 your work done. I have more tips like that in the book, but it is 697 00:45:28,140 --> 00:45:32,070 the glue that holds us together mental health, achievement or 698 00:45:32,070 --> 00:45:36,750 relationships. We need sleep, to show up to be our best selves. 699 00:45:38,550 --> 00:45:40,410 John Miles: I don't know about you, but I certainly feel it 700 00:45:40,500 --> 00:45:44,280 when I am performing at my best and sleeping well. And when I'm 701 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,610 not getting those rims in and feel like I have alternative 702 00:45:47,610 --> 00:45:51,060 fog. We've spent a lot of time today talking about unhealthy 703 00:45:51,150 --> 00:45:54,630 achievers, I wanted to talk about healthy achievers. And 704 00:45:54,660 --> 00:45:58,680 when examining healthy achievers, what commonalities do 705 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,220 they share? What types of mindsets and behaviors do they 706 00:46:02,220 --> 00:46:02,880 exhibit? 707 00:46:03,630 --> 00:46:05,430 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Yeah, for this book, I went in search 708 00:46:05,430 --> 00:46:08,790 of what did these healthy achievers had in common? What I 709 00:46:08,790 --> 00:46:14,160 will say is they first of all mattered to themselves. They 710 00:46:14,340 --> 00:46:17,790 knew that they were worthy of rest, they understood that when 711 00:46:17,790 --> 00:46:22,410 they worked best, they put time in their calendar to actually 712 00:46:22,410 --> 00:46:25,680 take a break one student I talked to actually had in his 713 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:30,240 calendar, take these two hours for yourself. First of all, they 714 00:46:30,270 --> 00:46:34,950 had this sense of value, and they protected themselves. They 715 00:46:34,950 --> 00:46:39,420 didn't drink excessively or use drugs because they didn't want 716 00:46:39,420 --> 00:46:42,870 to do that to themselves. The other thing that these healthy 717 00:46:42,870 --> 00:46:47,220 achievers had in common is that they knew their strengths, their 718 00:46:47,220 --> 00:46:51,570 parents and other adults in their lives, helped them use 719 00:46:51,570 --> 00:46:55,440 those strengths and match them to genuine needs in the 720 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:59,520 community. So it wasn't, oh, I want to do a clothing drive 721 00:46:59,550 --> 00:47:02,190 because I want to get rid of the clothes in my closets. But 722 00:47:02,190 --> 00:47:06,750 actually having the tools to go and find out what is needed in 723 00:47:06,750 --> 00:47:11,610 my community right now. What can I do to help fill that need, so 724 00:47:11,610 --> 00:47:15,210 centering the need on the people who actually need the help, one 725 00:47:15,210 --> 00:47:18,990 of the things that really stood out to me was that their parents 726 00:47:18,990 --> 00:47:24,990 gave them the mindset and the skill set of interdependence. So 727 00:47:25,020 --> 00:47:28,710 often as parents, we believe that our job is to raise 728 00:47:28,830 --> 00:47:31,620 independent adults, which of course it is like, of course, 729 00:47:31,620 --> 00:47:34,890 that's a priority for me. But what I have found to be more 730 00:47:34,890 --> 00:47:40,860 profound is to raise children and young adults who believe 731 00:47:40,890 --> 00:47:46,560 that they are worthy of reaching out for help, and that they are 732 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:51,330 worthy relationship partners who can be depended on for others, 733 00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:55,350 what these parents focused on, was helping their child 734 00:47:55,380 --> 00:47:59,490 recognize that it takes courage to ask for help. They modeled 735 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,550 this behavior for their own children. Actually, this in my 736 00:48:02,550 --> 00:48:06,420 own home. My daughter was struggling on a paper. She was 737 00:48:06,420 --> 00:48:09,930 in eighth grade. And I, her teacher had given her a lot of 738 00:48:09,930 --> 00:48:13,800 comments. And I pulled up the first article I wrote for the 739 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,320 science section of the Washington Post by a very 740 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,860 seasoned editor, and it had tons of edits on it. And I said to 741 00:48:19,860 --> 00:48:23,370 her look, it was read, it was a bloodbath. I at first was 742 00:48:23,370 --> 00:48:26,340 embarrassed to need this much help, right? I'm a journalist, 743 00:48:26,340 --> 00:48:30,840 why do I need this much help. But then I looked at it as this 744 00:48:31,020 --> 00:48:36,180 editor thought I was worthy enough to invest in. And so I 745 00:48:36,180 --> 00:48:39,840 was grateful for the time that they invested in it. And so they 746 00:48:39,870 --> 00:48:44,400 helped their kids understand the mindsets of interdependence, not 747 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,490 talking about codependence, I'm talking about this mutual, 748 00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,990 healthy reliance. That was a major takeaway for me. 749 00:48:53,190 --> 00:48:55,110 John Miles: Yeah, I had a similar experience. When I was 750 00:48:55,110 --> 00:48:58,080 in the military. I worked for a gentleman named commander Bill 751 00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:03,420 Fitzsimmons. And he was a stickler on writing. And I 752 00:49:03,420 --> 00:49:07,590 think, because of him, my writing is what it is today, 753 00:49:07,590 --> 00:49:11,580 because I can't tell you how many times I'd have to rewrite 754 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:17,370 documents for him about two years later. Finally, I think 755 00:49:17,370 --> 00:49:20,340 for the first time, he gave me one that was completely clean, 756 00:49:20,580 --> 00:49:22,410 and said, I think he finally got it. 757 00:49:23,010 --> 00:49:24,810 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: But isn't that amazing? Isn't that 758 00:49:24,810 --> 00:49:29,070 amazing how he invested in you. It really makes you feel valued. 759 00:49:30,330 --> 00:49:33,360 John Miles: It does. I'm sure he didn't want to have to do that. 760 00:49:33,390 --> 00:49:37,740 I didn't think they were badly written myself. But he wanted 761 00:49:38,100 --> 00:49:42,930 them to emulate him because these messages were coming from 762 00:49:42,930 --> 00:49:47,010 his authority. And so I had to make sure I got his voice right 763 00:49:47,010 --> 00:49:50,190 and how he liked to have things communicated. It was such an 764 00:49:50,190 --> 00:49:54,630 important learning lesson for me. Speaking of learning, what 765 00:49:54,630 --> 00:49:59,010 steps can schools and educators take to create a healthier 766 00:49:59,010 --> 00:50:01,650 academic environment? that supports students emotional well 767 00:50:01,650 --> 00:50:05,610 being, mental health and growth rather than solely focusing on 768 00:50:05,610 --> 00:50:07,440 STEM courses and performance. 769 00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,620 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Yeah, well, I think educators are wise 770 00:50:10,620 --> 00:50:14,670 on the research, I think it is accepted now in really every 771 00:50:14,670 --> 00:50:19,740 school, that relationships and connection are needed for 772 00:50:19,740 --> 00:50:22,650 learning to happen. So connections between students and 773 00:50:22,650 --> 00:50:25,770 teachers, connections between students and students 774 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,610 particularly well, in COVID. What I found in a lot of schools 775 00:50:29,610 --> 00:50:32,520 that that I was speaking with, is that they were really 776 00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:36,060 prioritizing relationships. Before rigor, I would say, 777 00:50:36,060 --> 00:50:39,780 that's one thing a school can do is to really drill down and make 778 00:50:39,780 --> 00:50:43,980 sure that every student in that classroom feels like they 779 00:50:43,980 --> 00:50:49,020 matter, to at least one of their peers, and one adult at school. 780 00:50:49,620 --> 00:50:52,590 And that is the pathway to learning. So schools are very 781 00:50:52,590 --> 00:50:56,100 strong about connection and belonging, they understand its 782 00:50:56,100 --> 00:51:00,090 importance mattering is belonging, an action that would 783 00:51:00,090 --> 00:51:03,720 be a first step is to make sure that every student feels like 784 00:51:03,720 --> 00:51:06,780 they matter to one friend. And to one adult, there are schools 785 00:51:06,780 --> 00:51:11,820 that do this, to have nonprofits like authentic connections or 786 00:51:11,820 --> 00:51:15,180 challenge success, come into your school and give you a 787 00:51:15,180 --> 00:51:19,500 mental health wellbeing card. Really look at the mental health 788 00:51:19,530 --> 00:51:23,460 of your students. And your teachers we talked about earlier 789 00:51:23,460 --> 00:51:26,880 that a child's resilience rests fundamentally on their 790 00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:31,200 caregivers resilience, it's also true in the classroom, a teacher 791 00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:35,370 needs resilience, they need to feel like they matter to so that 792 00:51:35,370 --> 00:51:38,100 they can be the source of support for the students in 793 00:51:38,100 --> 00:51:42,540 their classroom. Many teachers today are experiencing levels of 794 00:51:42,540 --> 00:51:46,950 burnout, we have never seen, I would say prioritize also the 795 00:51:46,950 --> 00:51:49,980 teachers in your school and the educators and make sure they 796 00:51:49,980 --> 00:51:55,170 have supportive relationships within the environment for them 797 00:51:55,170 --> 00:51:56,220 to be resilient. 798 00:51:57,420 --> 00:52:00,930 John Miles: Okay, and then, the last thing I wanted to ask you, 799 00:52:01,020 --> 00:52:05,280 before we just go into a couple of final questions is in the 800 00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:09,540 book, you offer a toolkit for positive change. And you've been 801 00:52:09,540 --> 00:52:12,240 talking about some of the strategies throughout but can 802 00:52:12,240 --> 00:52:16,200 you highlight what this toolkit is and maybe just give the 803 00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:20,100 listener an idea of if they read the book, what this toolkit 804 00:52:20,100 --> 00:52:21,060 might help them to do. 805 00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:25,110 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: At the end of the book, I give how to 806 00:52:25,380 --> 00:52:29,130 type tips for things that parents can do within their own 807 00:52:29,130 --> 00:52:33,780 home questions for reflection, how to prioritize affection, how 808 00:52:33,780 --> 00:52:36,990 to make the thinking visible, things like that. Then I also 809 00:52:36,990 --> 00:52:40,770 talk about how to for educators and schools and what they could 810 00:52:40,770 --> 00:52:45,270 be focusing on and centering mattering in their communities. 811 00:52:45,300 --> 00:52:48,090 I also talk about the wider community and I talked about the 812 00:52:48,090 --> 00:52:52,500 importance of community wide well being and belonging, our 813 00:52:52,500 --> 00:52:55,950 kids are not suffering in isolation. This is a systems 814 00:52:55,950 --> 00:53:00,210 problem. Finally, I have advice for at the university level, 815 00:53:00,330 --> 00:53:04,620 it's a long list, it's several pages long, of what from the 816 00:53:04,620 --> 00:53:09,270 micro home to the macro society, what we could do to start 817 00:53:09,270 --> 00:53:11,910 buffering against this excessive pressure to achieve. 818 00:53:13,950 --> 00:53:17,670 John Miles: I have done a number of episodes around systems 819 00:53:17,670 --> 00:53:23,010 change. And it is so interesting how so many things whether it's 820 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:27,270 climate change, or world hunger that we're facing, or 821 00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:33,630 loneliness, are going to require a systems level change to make 822 00:53:33,720 --> 00:53:37,260 the wholehearted efforts and concerted efforts that we need 823 00:53:37,260 --> 00:53:40,650 to see things move from where they are today to where we want 824 00:53:40,650 --> 00:53:43,380 them to go in the future. I completely agree with you. On 825 00:53:43,380 --> 00:53:48,330 that point. I wanted to end by asking you, if a listener or 826 00:53:48,330 --> 00:53:51,750 reader of the book picked it up or listen to today's episode, 827 00:53:51,780 --> 00:53:54,240 what are some of the most important things that you would 828 00:53:54,240 --> 00:53:58,710 want them to get from their time investing in reading or 829 00:53:58,710 --> 00:54:00,060 listening to this podcast? 830 00:54:00,630 --> 00:54:02,490 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: I think the first thing I would 831 00:54:02,490 --> 00:54:07,680 want them to know, and to keep in mind is that as the adults in 832 00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:11,310 our children's lives, we need to start prioritizing our own 833 00:54:11,310 --> 00:54:15,330 mental health and wellbeing, and firming up our own support 834 00:54:15,330 --> 00:54:19,860 system. So that we can be those sorts those first responders to 835 00:54:19,860 --> 00:54:23,370 our kids struggles. And we do not live in a society that 836 00:54:23,370 --> 00:54:28,350 supports adult mental health, whether it be at work, or in the 837 00:54:28,350 --> 00:54:31,260 larger community. That's one thing that I'd really like 838 00:54:31,290 --> 00:54:35,070 listeners to think about is how important it is to have people 839 00:54:35,070 --> 00:54:39,810 in our lives. Who will put our oxygen mask on for us we always 840 00:54:39,810 --> 00:54:43,230 hear oh, as parents, you have to put your oxygen mask on first. 841 00:54:43,380 --> 00:54:46,290 Well, when you are really desperate, what you really need 842 00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:50,040 is someone in your life to see that and reach for the mask and 843 00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:55,020 put it on for you that took me a long time to actually understand 844 00:54:55,020 --> 00:54:58,560 how important it is to invest in our relationships for the 845 00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:02,100 betterment of the people. well within our home. So that's one 846 00:55:02,100 --> 00:55:06,060 thing. Another thing I would say is to learn about mattering, 847 00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:10,680 because mattering, not only will help our children, it'll help us 848 00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:14,970 in the workplace. It'll help us in our larger communities. It 849 00:55:14,970 --> 00:55:20,670 is, to me, the most foundational part of living a life of meaning 850 00:55:20,700 --> 00:55:26,040 and fulfillment, and well being is to live a life of mattering. 851 00:55:28,020 --> 00:55:31,800 John Miles: Well, I love that you ended on that. And I'm gonna 852 00:55:31,830 --> 00:55:35,730 have the book everywhere in the show notes, etc. If people 853 00:55:35,730 --> 00:55:39,180 wanted to learn more about you, where's the best place for them 854 00:55:39,180 --> 00:55:39,630 to go? 855 00:55:40,050 --> 00:55:42,480 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Yeah, you can head over to my website, 856 00:55:42,690 --> 00:55:47,700 Jennifer B wallace.com. And if you preorder the book, where you 857 00:55:47,700 --> 00:55:50,670 order the book, there's some extra resources, exclusive stuff 858 00:55:50,670 --> 00:55:54,000 on my website, you could also head over to the mastery 859 00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:59,040 movement.com. That's a nonprofit that I co founded with some 860 00:55:59,070 --> 00:56:03,090 highly esteemed colleagues to bring that mattering from the 861 00:56:03,090 --> 00:56:07,980 ivory tower into people's homes and workplaces and communities 862 00:56:07,980 --> 00:56:10,800 and schools so that we could actually use the research and 863 00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:12,540 implemented in our everyday lives. 864 00:56:14,070 --> 00:56:16,350 John Miles: Well, Jenny, thank you so much for being on the 865 00:56:16,350 --> 00:56:20,280 show today. It was such an honor and to the audience. This is 866 00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:24,420 such a well researched and written book. I wholeheartedly 867 00:56:24,420 --> 00:56:29,280 encourage those who have kids to pick this up, because I think 868 00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:33,030 it's so important to helping you go down that path of earning 869 00:56:33,030 --> 00:56:36,750 that PhD to better understanding them and why that's so 870 00:56:36,750 --> 00:56:37,230 important. 871 00:56:38,190 --> 00:56:39,810 Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Thank you so much for having me. This 872 00:56:39,810 --> 00:56:41,370 has been great. I thoroughly 873 00:56:41,370 --> 00:56:43,080 John Miles: enjoyed that interview with Jennifer Wallace. 874 00:56:43,110 --> 00:56:46,200 And I wanted to thank Jennifer Stephanie Brody and also Penguin 875 00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:48,660 Random House for the privilege and honor of having her appear 876 00:56:48,660 --> 00:56:50,940 on today's show links to all things Jennifer will be in the 877 00:56:50,940 --> 00:56:53,430 show notes of passion. struck.com videos are on YouTube 878 00:56:53,430 --> 00:56:56,580 at both passion struck clips as well as John airmiles. As I 879 00:56:56,580 --> 00:56:58,470 mentioned at the beginning of the episode, we are now on 880 00:56:58,470 --> 00:57:00,900 syndicated radio in the brushwood media network. Catch 881 00:57:00,900 --> 00:57:03,990 us on your evening commute every Monday and Friday from five to 882 00:57:03,990 --> 00:57:06,630 6pm. Eastern Time links will also be in the shownotes 883 00:57:06,660 --> 00:57:08,940 advertiser deals and discount codes are in one convenient 884 00:57:08,940 --> 00:57:11,970 place and passion stripe.com/deals. And I have 885 00:57:11,970 --> 00:57:15,390 some exciting news. My book passion struct is now available 886 00:57:15,390 --> 00:57:18,540 for pre order on Amazon and I'll also have a link for it in the 887 00:57:18,540 --> 00:57:21,090 show notes. You can sign up for our newsletter on passion 888 00:57:21,090 --> 00:57:25,110 spark.com Or you can catch us on all the social platforms at John 889 00:57:25,110 --> 00:57:27,420 R miles. You're about to hear a preview of the passionate strike 890 00:57:27,420 --> 00:57:30,990 podcast interview I did with Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor, we discussed 891 00:57:30,990 --> 00:57:34,080 her transformative book whole brain living or Dr. Taylor 892 00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:37,290 guides us on a groundbreaking understanding that led her to 893 00:57:37,290 --> 00:57:41,610 introduce the concept of four distinct characters within each 894 00:57:41,610 --> 00:57:45,180 of us left thinking left emotion, right emotion and right 895 00:57:45,180 --> 00:57:48,540 thinking empowering us to recognize their presence in our 896 00:57:48,540 --> 00:57:49,380 everyday lives. 897 00:57:49,410 --> 00:57:52,170 Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor: I call it the brain huddle because there 898 00:57:52,170 --> 00:57:55,740 are these four very specific groups of cells that result in 899 00:57:55,740 --> 00:58:00,990 very specific modules, abilities, skill sets, if I'm 900 00:58:00,990 --> 00:58:05,460 really four major characters, then getting them on the same 901 00:58:05,460 --> 00:58:10,500 page is to me, I truly believe the evolution of humanity. I 902 00:58:10,500 --> 00:58:14,730 think this is the ultimate goal. Because that way, then we have 903 00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:20,220 the ability to use all four skill sets, but to do it in a 904 00:58:20,220 --> 00:58:25,740 peaceful way motivated by the collective whole of what we are 905 00:58:25,830 --> 00:58:29,550 of humanity as the value base. So I truly believe that 906 00:58:29,550 --> 00:58:33,090 wholegrain living He is the embodiment of the evolution of 907 00:58:33,090 --> 00:58:33,840 humanity's 908 00:58:33,870 --> 00:58:36,450 John Miles: remember that we rise by lifting others. So share 909 00:58:36,450 --> 00:58:38,670 the show with those that you care about. And if you found 910 00:58:38,670 --> 00:58:41,970 today's episode useful, then definitely share it with those 911 00:58:41,970 --> 00:58:44,940 who could use the advice that we gave on today's program. In the 912 00:58:44,940 --> 00:58:47,250 meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so 913 00:58:47,250 --> 00:58:49,980 that you can live what you listen until next time, go out 914 00:58:49,980 --> 00:58:51,600 there and become passion struck